speaker placement for the neurotically precise - need tips.

[Thaddeus Smith]

how do you guys measure and ensure precise placement from walls, toe in, etc for your speakers so that everything is mirrored from side to side? i've been using a tape measure but its just not working as well as I had hoped, and the carpet spikes make it impossible to perform small tweaks without completely lifting up the speaker.

[Don Richard]

Remove the spikes temporarily and slide around until you find a good location, then reinstall. Put a piece of carpet under the speakers when moving them if you have a bare floor.

[tube fanatic]

Having the 2 channels mirrored may not be the best placement for your room. Differences in reflection/absorption between the 2 sides may necessitate somewhat different positioning or toe-in. The best bet is to sit in your usual listening position and have someone else make minor adjustments as you listen. One speaker may need more toe-in than the other, different spacing from the side or back wall, and so on. For heavier speakers on carpeted floors I use the furniture moving discs which makes repositioning quite effortless. Once placement is set, use masking tape to clearly mark the location in case the speakers move when you reinstall the spikes (once they are installed, expect a possible difference in the bottom end if the floor is wood instead of concrete). Unfortunately, something which can make this whole process difficult is the recording that you use to set things up. Switching to another recording, which may have entirely different channel balance, may cause you to change your previous positioning! So, try to go for an an average based on listening to a whole bunch of music.

[Thaddeus Smith]

Having the 2 channels mirrored may not be the best placement for your room. Differences in reflection/absorption between the 2 sides may necessitate somewhat different positioning or toe-in. The best bet is to sit in your usual listening position and have someone else make minor adjustments as you listen. One speaker may need more toe-in than the other, different spacing from the side or back wall, and so on. For heavier speakers on carpeted floors I use the furniture moving discs which makes repositioning quite effortless. Once placement is set, use masking tape to clearly mark the location in case the speakers move when you reinstall the spikes (once they are installed, expect a possible difference in the bottom end if the floor is wood instead of concrete). Unfortunately, something which can make this whole process difficult is the recording that you use to set things up. Switching to another recording, which may have entirely different channel balance, may cause you to change your previous positioning! So, try to go for an an average based on listening to a whole bunch of music.

ha, this didn't help at all - now i'm even more neurotically concerned about my layout/positioning.

[tube fanatic]

ha, this didn't help at all - now i'm even more neurotically concerned about my layout/positioning.

Heck, that's what this insanity is all about! Sometimes it's easiest after taking in a couple of ounces of good "white lightning" and waiting until your legs feel like rubber!!!!!

[Thaddeus Smith]

hehe, nice. i'll take some pictures and see if there are any immediately visible suggestions and go from there.

[garyrc]

ha, this didn't help at all - now i'm even more neurotically concerned about my layout/positioning.

It seems to me that most speakers would sound best, with the best
balance and image, if they were placed in a way that is bilaterally
symmetrical in reference to the center listener [i.e., the "sweet spot"]
but off center in the room. If you ever have more than one person
listening, the sweet spot probably isn't a good way to go, although
there will still be one (for the listener who happens to be seated on
the center line between the speakers). I'm biased in favor of maximum
diffusion, a very little absorption gradually and strategically added
(except for a thick wall to wall carpet, which can be there from the
beginning), and something like Audyssey added last to bring the speakers
and room nearer to "reference." Finally, I am in the minority who
believes that individualizing the EQ a bit with tone controls (that are
after the Audyssey stage) is O.K., since so many disks (including SACDs,
Blu-rays, and Lps, as well as the usual suspects, CDs) don't seem
properly balanced. I always do listen to them all the way through
before fooling with EQ though (except for the occasional movie that only
merits one viewing).

If you really want to go crazy, move your ears back and forth in the room (as in a rolling desk chair) and find the areas of optimum bass, and put your chairs there. You can do the same with the speakers. Also, speaking of mirrors, at the point where you can see a reflection in a mirror held against the wall of one of your speakers from a listening chair, you should put some absorption .... or some diffusion, if it is really good diffusion, and if it is far enough away from you.

[Chris A]

Ha, this didn't help at all - now I'm even more neurotically concerned about my layout/positioning.

This is the technique that I use for my K-402s which are fairly large "antennas" (if you catch my meaning) and are very sensitive to pointing error:

1) I use a string tied from the center back of my listening chair temporarily placed in the sweet spot and stretch the string to each side of the Jub bass bins to measure a radial equidistant alignment. (Jubs are wide and this technique works okay as a coarse adjustment.)

2) Then I use one of those smaller Maglites (a focusable white-light LED flashlight) while sitting in my chair, shining the focused flashlight beam at the tweeter horns. If they look symmetric from this position, the toe-in is probably very good. This is much easier than using string to measure distance but it won't guarantee equal distance to each speaker: hence step 1, above, is required.

3) I run Audyssey to check things out. Since I use Room EQ Wizard (REW) to instrument the Jubs after this, I don't use the Audyssey AutoEQ function, but Audyssey really helps to set the delays and the relative channel gains.

Chris

[CECAA850]

I've heard of people using those small key chain type lasers to point speakers in a similar manner as above.

[CECAA850]

Neurotically precise????? I'd hate to have to build something for you[8-)].

[garyrc]

I've heard of people using those small key chain type lasers to point speakers in a similar manner as above.

I'm not up to date on lasers. If we are aiming at the speakers, do we know that the keychain type or cat toy type lasers won't damage diaphragms, or whatever, in tweeters? If we're aiming at the listening chair, do we need to make sure nobody is sitting there?

All I know about lasers is that Judge Ito asked that they not be pointed at him during the O.J. Trial ... and, of course, what almost happened to James Bond in Dr. No.

[Thaddeus Smith]

speaking of which.. I found some old terminal cups from a pair of kg 3.5s I used to have. should be perfect and will get one shipped your way after Xmas.

[garyrc]

I run Audyssey to check things out. Since I use Room EQ Wizard (REW) to instrument the Jubs after this, I don't use the Audyssey AutoEQ function, but Audyssey really helps to set the delays and the relative channel gains.

Chris (and others),

What do you think of using Audyssey auto EQ, then checking to see what it has done (from the listening positions) with Room EQ Wizard? My pre/pro (Marantz) only lets you know what Audyssey has done on an octave basis, so REW would give me a far better indication of what Audyssey has done. If I understand (and I'm still confused, despite reading a great deal of the Audyssey Q & A online), Audyssey's frequency and time domain corrections should provide relatively flat response at the listening positions -- providing that one uses "Audyssey Flat." So, doesn't that mean that the speakers/room would be flatter (when measuring with Room EQ Wizard ) with Audyssey Flat than without? Don't you lose the time domain corrections if you just use Audyssey to set the relative channel gains and the speaker delays (to adjust for different distances from the speakers to the listener), do not use Audyssey EQ, but do your EQ with REW?

"Confusion is the beginning of wisdom" -- Erich Fromm

[CECAA850]

speaking of which.. I found some old terminal cups from a pair of kg 3.5s I used to have. should be perfect and will get one shipped your way after Xmas.

What ga wire will it accept? Will it handle 500 watts?

[Rudy81]

I have the same neurosis and use many of the same techniques mentioned. I start out with a string and use a pen to mark where the corners sit relative to each other with the anchor point being the center of my listening seat. I then tape measure the results, followed with a laser pen to ensure the angle of each cabinet points to the same relative place on my seat. In my case, the HF horns are aimed at the outside corner of my chair.

All this, followed by Audyssey Pro runs, which verify the distance settings. I do allow Audyssey to EQ all 7.2 speakers. Over the years I have generally liked the Audyssey results. Although, Audyssey is not foolproof and with 'tall' speakers, like Khorns and such, microphone placement is critical to what Audyssey hears from the tweeter section.

[Rudy81]

BTW, depending on which flavor of Audyssey is installed on your receiver or pre/pro, you do not always get a totally flat response. Audyssey can and at times does modify the HF response to meet certain pre-programmed criteria. The Pro version allows you to select what you get. Different pre/pro manufacturers use different curves and programming.

[Chris A]

...microphone placement is critical to what Audyssey hears from the tweeter section...

One comment that I got from a friend that came over was that Audyssey needs to have the microphone moved to not only different lateral locations, but also different heights above the floor. This is something that I thought was either discouraged in the Audyssey literature, or was completely absent in the discussion.

Chris

[Rudy81]

Chis,

The Audyssey literature I have for the Pro system directs you to vary microphone placement both horizontally AND vertically.

My comment regarding the height issue is that if you strictly follow the Audyssey suggestions and place the microphone at ear level and have Khorns, or other tall speakers, you end up with an abnormal boost in the very high frequencies. At least that was my experience. I had addressed that problem in the AVSforums and was directed to raise my 'basic' microphone height to get closer to the tweeter height, vs. my ear height.

[dad311]

I place mine where they sound the best, then my wife where they can stay and where they can not,[]

[Thaddeus Smith]

speaking of which.. I found some old terminal cups from a pair of kg 3.5s I used to have. should be perfect and will get one shipped your way after Xmas.

What ga wire will it accept? Will it handle 500 watts?

shrug, at least 12ga for sure. I pulled the crossovers off, so it's just some gold plated knurled lugs that can accept either raw wire or banana plugs and whatever guage we want to solder on the back. just trying to be environmentally responsible and reuse when possible.