My sprinklers need an exorcism

[USNRET]

Last month's water useage was 77,000 gallons ($800 +) at my home [^o)] Water dudes say 'yep, you used it'; I say [bs] . Anyway, I wanted a good check this month so no topping off the pool and I secured the sprnklers. The sprinkler timer is turned to OFF but several times I noticed wet grass and mummbled about hevay dew. This morning sure 'nuff the sprinkler zone in th efront yard turned on for 10 minutes. Verified timer is OFF. What's up with dat?

The leak-o-meter indicator at the meter is not moving and 1 gallon into a milk cartoon equals 1 gallon at the meter (don't have what I need to see if the heavy flow is calibrated).

[Marvel]

You need to make sure a neighbor isn't getting a hose hooked up when no one is home. Happens in some neighborhoods here in Chattanooga. Folks will top off their pool from a neighbor's faucet.

Bruce

[CECAA850]

That's over 100 gal/hr 24/7 for the entire month (1.78 gal/min). Something doesn't seem right.

[CECAA850]

Does the meter move when everything is shut off? Do you have ant type of automatic fill on the pool ? Are your sprinklers and house service on seperate meters?

[USNRET]

Meter doesn't move when everything is off. No auto fill. One meter for everything. Someone is almost always home and neither neighbor have a pool (trust them anyway).

Electronic metering that city can read and says that on certain days I used 12,000 gl. plus; other days very little so even if the leak meter isn't running idicating a leak the useage is not steady. My only thought is that perhaps the meter is out of calibration at high flow rate (pool, washer, etc are all on).

Still can't figure the haunted sprinklers though. Where would the 12vdc come from to actuate the solenoid when timer is off.

[CECAA850]

Meter doesn't move when everything is off. No auto fill. One meter for everything. Someone is almost always home and neither neighbor have a pool (trust them anyway).

Electronic metering that city can read and says that on certain days I used 12,000 gl. plus; other days very little so even if the leak meter isn't running idicating a leak the useage is not steady. My only thought is that perhaps the meter is out of calibration at high flow rate (pool, washer, etc are all on).

Still can't figure the haunted sprinklers though. Where would the 12vdc come from to actuate the solenoid when timer is off.

12000gal/day is over 8 gal a minute for 24 hours. You'd have to have a hose wide open, or nearly wide open, all day to do that. There's got to be something wrong with the metering unit.

[USNRET]

Carl, you guys in town this weekend? A small get together over here Sat. night; come by if you are in.

[mike stehr]

Meter doesn't move when everything is off. No auto fill. One meter for everything. Someone is almost always home and neither neighbor have a pool (trust them anyway).

Electronic metering that city can read and says that on certain days I used 12,000 gl. plus; other days very little so even if the leak meter isn't running idicating a leak the useage is not steady. My only thought is that perhaps the meter is out of calibration at high flow rate (pool, washer, etc are all on).

Still can't figure the haunted sprinklers though. Where would the 12vdc come from to actuate the solenoid when timer is off.

Is the system set-up for blow down? I don't know if you get hard freezes where you are at in Texas to justify a seasonal blow-down. If it is, it should have a water shut-off valve for the system...it should have one anyway...

If there is a shut-off valve prior to the system, you could just cut off the water supply to the sprinklers. Provided the valve doesn't cut off the water to other things, which it shouldn't.

Shutting off the timer should kill the system and not provide power to the solenoids for each zone...it should anyway. Maybe other than turning off the timer, kill the power to the timer box. It'll clear the program if you kill the power to the box, so you'll have to go and re-program zone times and sequence, etc...

Shutting off the timer should keep the system from working technically. But evidently there is still power getting to the zone/zones. One (or maybe more) of the solenoids in a irrigation zone box could be stuck open, holding the valve for that zone open.

Maybe find the suspected zone that is still running, locate the irrigation box that the zone controls. Inside the box should be a diaphragm type valve with a solenoid attached to it. You can turn the solenoid off or on manually by turning it. The valve itself should have a knob/crank to turn it on or off as well. That SHOULD cut off the zone from water, regardless if the system is powered up or not.

That system should have a line coming off the main water line with a shut off valve, with some sort of back-flow preventer, then a blow-down connector located in a convienent area like a nearby irrigation box.(the back-flow valve could be in a irrigation box as well) There has got to be a way of shutting off water to the system without shutting off water to the rest of your home.

Could be a leak, but you confirmed that a zone is watering.

Usually with respect to blown downs, some of the solenoids for some reason don't have power to them or get stuck...and you have to turn on the zone manually. No big deal, but if you are blowing down a system with 30 zones, it can kinda suck.

Mike

[CECAA850]

Carl, you guys in town this weekend? A small get together over here Sat. night; come by if you are in.

Won't be there till Sun, lunch-ish []. If plans change, I'd be happy to crash your soiree.

[mike stehr]

If you do happen to poke around with the irrigation control boxes, the chances are slim you may have one, but there is a thing called a "T Boss". A T boss is a little battery powered box, that is actually a timer, the connects right next to the solenoid in the control box itself. They are used for some zones in a system that doesn't have a common timer, or not connected to the system for some reason.

I doubt you have a T Boss, but that would be one reason a zone would keep watering if the main timer is shut-off.

[USNRET]

One (or maybe more) of the solenoids in a irrigation zone box could be stuck open, holding the valve for that zone open.

If this were th ecase wouldn't thezone continue to water since the solenoid is stuck open (in the case of a systemw/o a 'master solenoid'?

I'll get to checking things out. While not an aquatic engineer, I have installed two complete systems at 1 acre each with multiple zones and maintained them through the solenoid failures (always stuck closed) and other malfunctions but this is weird.

Next step is to unplug the power supply as suggested, if it still waters I'll get a priest. One zone watering at the same time 3 days a week (as programmed but turned OFF) has to be a faulty timer. Perhaps I'll just electrically disconnect that zone so I don't dump the program.

And thanks for all the inputs, memory jogs and help! HNY

[dtel]

One other thing the solenoids have a manual off on, on the top, check to see it one is partly open. You would think it would ge really wet in one area if that was the case.

On every system we installed we put all the solenoids in one place and just ran the pipes out for each zone. It cost more but if there was ever an electrical or solenoid problem it was easy to track down the problem and fix it. I have never had a problem with solenoids in all of the cases of them we installed.

The only problem I ever had was a lose ground once which made the solenoids not want to open. We always used the Rainbird and Hunter commercial line for solenoids, heads and control boxes and never had a problem, luck, I have no idea really ?

You would think if you lost that much water you would see a problem, once the ground gets soaked it's easy to see.

I say that because once we installed irrigation to a customers back and front yard and the wife called us back a few weeks later and said her yard was so wet she couldn't even walk in it. We went to check it out and she was right, I could not figure out what was the problem was until her husband pulled up. We told him what we were doing and he laughed and said, I love to watch the sprinklers so I run them everyday when I get home for as long as I sit outside, I was relieved, I had no idea what was happening.

[dtel]

Next step is to unplug the power supply as suggested, if it still waters I'll get a priest. One zone watering at the same time 3 days a week (as programmed but turned OFF) has to be a faulty timer. Perhaps I'll just electrically disconnect that zone so I don't dump the program.

All the control boxes we used could be unplugged and they keep the watering schedule, there is usually a battery inside to keep the info. If your not sure just set that zone to 0 minutes run time that will leave the rest alone.

I wonder if you have a broken pipe between the solenoid and the heads, That would just dump alot more water than with the back pressure the heads supply ? I would think you should be able to see that big of a leak, it would cause some kind of erosion or badly flooded area.

[mike stehr]

One (or maybe more) of the solenoids in a irrigation zone box could be stuck open, holding the valve for that zone open.

If this were th ecase wouldn't thezone continue to water since the solenoid is stuck open (in the case of a systemw/o a 'master solenoid'?

Yeah, you are right. The zone would continue to run in spite of the timer switching to another zone. Another thing is maybe check to see if the timer box has more than one program. Some have multiple programs, like A, B, and C. Where maybe the zone is running from a different program...but then again if the box is turned off it shouldn't run at all.

I dunno...I help with blow-downs and minor repairs at the local Air Force Base, but I'm still a bit on the green side when it comes to irrigation systems.

[mike stehr]

Next step is to unplug the power supply as suggested, if it still waters I'll get a priest. One zone watering at the same time 3 days a week (as programmed but turned OFF) has to be a faulty timer. Perhaps I'll just electrically disconnect that zone so I don't dump the program.

All the control boxes we used could be unplugged and they keep the watering schedule, there is usually a battery inside to keep the info. If your not sure just set that zone to 0 minutes run time that will leave the rest alone.

I wonder if you have a broken pipe between the solenoid and the heads, That would just dump alot more water than with the back pressure the heads supply ? I would think you should be able to see that big of a leak, it would cause some kind of erosion or badly flooded area.

If there is a broken lateral line with the water loss he mentions, there should be a rather large hole, or a big bubble of water developing in the sod over the leak.

You mention you set-up auto irrigation systems with all the control boxes and solenoids in one area. It's a nice idea that I wish they would do at the AFB. There is only one system at a park on Base that does that. But that system only waters about 80% of the park, T bosses do the rest.

It's nice, you can blow-down, troubleshoot, adjust solenoids right there at that spot...no wandering all over hell.(unless a head breaks) With all the control boxes in that one spot, you can blow down the system without using the timer...you can open all the valves manually right there...

[dtel]

If there is a broken lateral line with the water loss he mentions, there should be a rather large hole, or a big bubble of water developing in the sod over the leak.

That's what I was thinking.

You mention you set-up auto irrigation systems with all the control boxes and solenoids in one area. It's a nice idea that I wish they would do at the AFB. There is only one system at a park on Base that does that. But that system only waters about 80% of the park, T bosses do the rest.

We did it like that for years. The irrigation company tried to talk me out it for a long time saying I was wasting money on all the extra pipe to do it that way. The way I looked at it was the pipe was included in the price and I KNOW for sure who they were going to call if there was a problem. So if I had to go back and replace all the wire and solenoids it was close to the control box and could all be changed in a few hours instead of digging up down each zone to replace a wire.

It's nice, you can blow-down, troubleshoot, adjust solenoids right there at that spot...no wandering all over hell.(unless a head breaks) With all the control boxes in that one spot, you can blow down the system without using the timer...you can open all the valves manually right there...

I'm not sure what you mean by "blow-down" but I think your talking about what we did in our yard with water lines.

I have about 2000' of 1" pipe going all over this 6 acres for water faucets, I figured I would put them wherever I would need them later while I was doing it. What I did was where it gets fed from the well I put a ball valve to cut it off, and a faucet. I just turn off the ball valve and connect a air compressor to the faucet then open up the last faucet and blow out all the water so nothing can freeze in the winter. It works great and takes about 5 minutes, it sure beats trying to cover and insulate all those faucets all over the yard. [Y]

[mike stehr]

I'm not sure what you mean by "blow-down" but I think your talking about what we did in our yard with water lines.

I have about 2000' of 1" pipe going all over this 6 acres for water faucets, I figured I would put them wherever I would need them later while I was doing it. What I did was where it gets fed from the well I put a ball valve to cut it off, and a faucet. I just turn off the ball valve and connect a air compressor to the faucet then open up the last faucet and blow out all the water so nothing can freeze in the winter. It works great and takes about 5 minutes, it sure beats trying to cover and insulate all those faucets all over the yard.

Same exact process, just on a larger scale. There is requirements to prevent non-potable water from returning to the source, which is usually potable. On the AFB anyway, they use a dual in/out valve with bleeder screws called a back-flow preventer. It basically does what it's name implies, preventing non-potable waste water from returning to the clean water source.

Either before or after the back-flow valve, (can't recall which end) there will be a blow-down connector. Which is just a 1 inch or 1/2 inch (they vary) quick connect like they use for impact sprinklers. This is where you connect a air compressor to the system. We use a larger compressor that you pull behind a pick-up...150 to 200 pounds pressure roughly...

I'm up in eastern Washington state where we get good hard winter freezes. So the systems around here need to be free of water by November. Unless the lines are way down in the ground, which is pretty uncommon.

We start blow-down on the Base at the first of October and it takes about four weeks to blow down (or try to) everything twice.

Mike

[Utard]

Hey its what I do.

https://sites.google.com/site/wasatchsprinklermanagementllc/home

So.... first thing is can you isolate the sprinkler system from everything else?

If you can isolate it you will be able to quickly find out if you are loosing water in the house or out.

For the inside I have seen water softeners malfunction and waste water 24/7.

I am not sure but a RO water system could possible do this also.

I have not run across a clock/timer that can still supply power when it is in the off position.

Yet that is.

Just unplug it and nothing can happen.

In Utah we have stop and waste valves that tee off of the main line to supply the sprinklers.

If those valve go bad water will leak out the waste hole 24/7.

If you have sandy soil it can take months of buildup to rise to the surface.

If you can isolate it then shut that valve.

Check your meter.

If it is moving time it.

Time how much it moves in 15 seconds.

Then open your sprinkler isolation valve and time the meter again.

If there is ANY difference that valve is going bad.

If there is no change see if you have a valve in the house where the water comes in the house.

Close it if the meter stops then you are loosing it in the house.

If you have the sprinkler system and the house valve isolated and the meter is still moving then you have a leak in the main line to the house.

Have you noticed any sprinkler heads weeping?

If you have any water coming from a head then the valve needs to be fixed.

If your valves are in boxes in the ground just put your ear close and if you hear and hissing or water flow just replace it.

The quickest and easiest way to fix a valve is to try and find a whole one of the same brand/model and swap the tops.

If they are old just put in new ones. Saves a lot of head aches.

Just take out the screws/bolts holding it together on both valves.

On the old valve everything from the diaphragm, top, screws and solenoid throw away and put on the new parts.

Make sure to have perfectly clean.

Even a grain of sand in the wrong place will cause problems.

With all that being said sometimes leaks like this can be tricky to find.

My number is on my web site if you want to give me a call.

And if you are at a loss it might be good to call someone in your area that is familiar with how systems are set up in your area

I am not sure what people charge in your area but an average here is $60.00 per hour for repair.

[Utard]

150 to 200 pounds pressure roughly..

Be careful with the pressure. Things start to blow up with higher pressure. 100 to 150 might be ok. I do not like to go over 100.

[dtel]

Same exact process, just on a larger scale. There is requirements to prevent non-potable water from returning to the source, which is usually potable. On the AFB anyway, they use a dual in/out valve with bleeder screws called a back-flow preventer. It basically does what it's name implies, preventing non-potable waste water from returning to the clean water source.

We had to use the back-flow preventer on customers irrigation but i did not use one at our house. Most customers were on "city" water, were on our own well and I was not really worried about it, there is a check valve at the well so I couldn't send anything back up the line anyway.