Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Chris, I think you have the way ahead. Now if there were 6 amps, and a really good active 3 way crossover, you'd be in the money!Good comment. I've found that the demands on individual amplifiers, and particularly their required output power capabilities to be significantly reduced when bi-amping or tri-amping. I've never been able to get one of my Crown D-75A amplifiers (powering the Jub bass bins and tri-amping the Belle) to run out of headroom (to my knowledge), and have never tripped the error LEDs. I've found that these fairly inexpensive, low power amplifiers are very good and are very inexpensive used on craigslist and ebay - usually less than $150/stereo amplifier. Much less amplifier power is required for this approach. For the more critical loudspeaker drivers, you can use your tube favorite (tube) amps to drive them, i.e., midrange or tweeter. Bottom line: I've found that it is actually cheaper to use digital actice crossovers with less expensive bass-bin amps and bypass passive crossover issues. The cost of running one or two extra pairs of speaker wires to each speaker is very low. The sonic benefits of bi-amping or tri-amping are usually underappreciated by those that haven't heard them. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Pretend this post is from Dean. He asked me to post this. I don't know why, just following orders.Thanks Bob. Sorry you're in the middle of this. For the other readers here, the "active crossovers" that PWK was referring to in the article are analog active crossovers, not digital. Dean knows this. This has been pointed out in prior threads on this subject, ad nauseam. Bob, you know as well as I that the real proponent of digital active crossovers has been and continues to be Roy. I'm merely a convert, and now a strong believer now that I've heard the difference. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Chris, You might be surprised though at how many of us with Jubilees have "been there, done that" and then gone to passive crossovers. In my case, I will give up the almost undetectable benefit of time alignment for the bliss of absolute silence when there should be silence. It is all about trade-offs in this and everything else in audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Chris said " Bob, you know as well as I that the real proponent of digital active crossovers has been and continues to be Roy. I'm merely a convert, and now a strong believer now that I've heard the difference" Chris, Roy also, if you recall, designed a Jubilee passive for Rigma. That crossover design is a masterpiece if we can take the liberty of calling something made of electronic parts a masterpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 In my case, I will give up the almost undetectable benefit of time alignment for the bliss of absolute silence when there should be silence. Interesting comment, because I have absolute silence with my setup using Dx38s. I assume that hasn't been your experience? Note that I'm using all XLR connectors and with one exception, balanced connections--the one exception being the First Watt F3, which is connected to the Jubilee Dx38 crossover via XLR-RCA cable, and is still dead quiet. I have to say that my experience tri-amping my Belle and getting the time-alignment settings right to get it to integrate in between the Jubs was much more dramatic than I thought it would be. Night and day difference. My wife now hears things that I cannot hear with the well-integrated center channel. I was actually dumbfounded at the difference of just the midrange time delay being off about the equivalent of an inch in physical time alignment (i.e. ~0.00008 seconds delay error). I can't explain why, but if you're ever in the area, drop in for a demo and I can do the A-B for you. I still can't believe the difference. I will acknowledge that there are some users that are apparently overwhelmed by the use of digital crossovers, and this is a definite barrier to market entry for digital crossovers in the consumer market. I bet you're going to have a lot of after-market business in passives for a long, long time. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Roy also, if you recall, designed a Jubilee passive for Rigma. That crossover design is a masterpiece if we can take the liberty of calling something made of electronic parts a masterpiece.Yes, I know very well about those now-famous on-the-wall passives that rival the Jubs in sheer size of their visual footprint. I don't recall, but how much did they cost? I also remember that there was the little issue of time delay correction for the K-402/TADs that I never heard anything about with those passives. Roy was adamant, if you recall, about correcting for time delays. I understand why now. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Of course I know he's talking about analog crossovers, and so does everyone else -- he wrote that in the 70's for crying out loud. The majority of the issues PK had with electronic crossovers are applicable whether analog or digital. I have no idea how you think the difference plays into this at any level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I think Roy just hates to solder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Chris, I got the noise sort of acceptable by doing crazy things. Source on an UPS. Two amps across the room from each other but using an extension cord to get them both plugged into the same outlet. Messed with all sorts of XLR connector wiring configuration. Almost got there when I bought an isolating mixer to run the different sources through and do the switching. At some point I thought, "You know, I can just build Roy's passive crossover and then I can listen to music". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Of course I know he's talking about analog crossovers, and so does everyone else -- he wrote that in the 70's for crying out loud. The majority of the issues PK had with electronic crossovers are applicable whether analog or digital. I have no idea how you think the difference plays into this at any level. Hey, don't badmouth the stuff from the 70s. That is back when we could build stuff good enough to go to the moon and back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Is anyone justing kickin' back and listening to the music yet? [:|] I do, however, think I need to order some tubes... these are going on five plus years now. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Hey, don't badmouth the stuff from the 70s. That is back when we could build stuff good enough to go to the moon and back....with their HP-35 calculators...no, really. The astronauts used HP-35s to correct their trajectory burn times to/from the moon, IIRC, due to the accuracy of the calculations vis-a-vis mainframes of that era. My old man owned two of these calculators, and sold the first one at a profit to someone at his workplace, then bought the second one to replace it, almost for free, net cash flow. I learned RPN in high school [Y][N] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Chris, I got the noise sort of acceptable by doing crazy things. Source on an UPS. Two amps across the room from each other but using an extension cord to get them both plugged into the same outlet. Messed with all sorts of XLR connector wiring configuration. Almost got there when I bought an isolating mixer to run the different sources through and do the switching. At some point I thought, "You know, I can just build Roy's passive crossover and then I can listen to music". Wow, I guess that I was lucky then. I'm as happy as a clam, presently. I may try out another JFET amp from Pass (the J2 or S2), but I can't imagine things getting a lot better than the present configuration--which is good for the bank account and the social relationship with my roommate. You know, we always need a new kitchen, or a new air conditioner, or... Has anyone else tried a J2 or S2? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Chris said " Bob, you know as well as I that the real proponent of digital active crossovers has been and continues to be Roy. I'm merely a convert, and now a strong believer now that I've heard the difference" Chris, Roy also, if you recall, designed a Jubilee passive for Rigma. That crossover design is a masterpiece if we can take the liberty of calling something made of electronic parts a masterpiece. Just to clarify this a bit....Roy's reference for the Jub passive design mentioned was the active setup and he wanted to have the passive sound as close to that reference system...and rigma's implemention of the passive system supports Roy's design goal was met IMHO. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 In Hope, I thought Mike's set up with the EV unit and his triode amps sounded very nice, but it didn't sound as nice as Rigma's passives, which produced a non-fatiguing effortless/open and rich sound. Dean didn't you just recently comment that you were hearing challenged? I believe this just proves it..!!!![] It's all good people and I have designed my system to satisfy myself and my good friend rigma has done the same I'm sure and we both have had a lot of fun along the way. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Apparently distortion doesn't fall within the range of where my hearing is damaged. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I am not sure what you mean by that? are you saying that in order to appreciate the change my hearing needed to go bad? Sorry been busy and did not have time to check the forum. The idea that your first impression was the new crossover sounded horrible and that your ears some how were defective needing to break-in to appreciate the new sound is absurd... The sound was indeed much brighter and it took some time for your mind to re-adjust to the horribly brighter overly etched detail your first impression alluded too! I'd have much more respect if the person in question told you the caps needed to break-in... at least he wouldn't be insulting your hearing abilities (politely of course). To be absolutely clear I believe your first impression was absolutely correct. The human mind can adjust so that just about anything can end up sounding good if you suffer with it long enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Quit brainwashing everyone with that stuff, you're making them deaf. I want company. I am so old and deaf that a set of PIO caps might sound all right to me now. Fortunately, I still got good test equipment. Problem is the most important test equipment a audio equipment designer can have is a good set of ears.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I don't know nuttin...... but.... Isn't it possible that when the speakers came out of the factory they sounded like 'x'. Now over the years because of capacitor degradation they sound like 'y'. But a person has gotten used to it because that is what the human brain does. Now with the crossover brought back up to spec. the speakers sound like 'x' again. And this is abrupt, not over 20+ years so it sounds different. just my 2 cents cuz babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Is a schematic of the crossover that Roy designed for Rigma available? Or is it proprietary or something? I've been searching with no luck. babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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