Thaddeus Smith Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 i guess i had images of the driver basket snapping and destroying itself like so many pictures commonly associated with shipping klipsch center channels. no music yet. Morgan was a great wife and stayed up to welcome me home, but went to bed shortly thereafter. Had to go straight to work today, so really haven't been able to air it out much. (i crammed just a few movie scenes in this morning before bolting out the door) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 with great power comes great responsibility. and also, i know these are rambling thoughts - try to follow along. it's definitely easy to make this hot. i thought i would crank up the gain a little bit for a more dramatic presence and it just overpowered the scene, without giving any extra detail. backed it down to around calibration levels and it blended in well, while still getting plenty loud and full. it does very well with music. i THINK i hear a little bit of boominess, which could either be me not used to having a sub or the sub's location. Due to it's size, I don't really have a lot of locations to play around with - but i do have it in a corner, mouth firing into the room, about 6-8 inches from each wall. So it's likely i'll have to make some compromises in sound and/or look at some in depth EQ'ing in the future. had a fun little exercise last night while my wife and sister were around: cranked up the starwars pod race and had them stand in front of the mouth, insert arms, etc - the amount of air being pushed is impressive and made me giggle. tweaked some of the amp settings last night and re-ran audyssey. will play around more tonight to find out what i hear. i must emphasize that this thing is fantastic even when not fully dialed in, which is a great testament to it's design. i just know I have a ways to go before i hit the point of diminishing returns. i've had ample time to caress this beauty and carl's craftsmanship is superb; i am truly fortunate to have a piece of his handywork in my home. definitely look at adding rubber feet - they were not in the orginal plans, but im assuming the they help prevent sub-walking as well as some dampening between the mouth and the floor. also brace the crap out of BEFORE you complete assembly. i can't describe how rattle and vibration free this cabinet is at such high levels of operation. you can hear the driver moving and everything around the sub in the room, but that is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Will audyssey address phase? Is it on the same wall as your mains? Have you tried it out of the corner (just for testing, not necessarily as a permanent location)? How have you checked phase? Have you tried it tucked into the corner as far as it will go? Have you considered getting some of those slippery furniture moving feet for sliding it around? (If it's on a wood or smooth surface, you can slide it around with a scrap piece of carpet placed upside down). How have you measured the frequency to apply your amps PEQ band? You need to do this FIRST before running Audyssey and Audyssey won't have to use up so many of it's resources. Let the sub amp PEQ do the heavy lifting. (I'll think of some more questions shortly[]) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Will audyssey address phase? It's supposed to. All guides indicate setting phase to 0 if that setting is present on your sub. Is it on the same wall as your mains? no, but it's in a similar plane. i'll take some pictures tonight so you can better understand the setup. Have you tried it out of the corner (just for testing, not necessarily as a permanent location)? i haven't How have you checked phase? how? Have you tried it tucked into the corner as far as it will go? no, but i will. Have you considered getting some of those slippery furniture moving feet for sliding it around? (If it's on a wood or smooth surface, you can slide it around with a scrap piece of carpet placed upside down). will do this tonight. How have you measured the frequency to apply your amps PEQ band? You need to do this FIRST before running Audyssey and Audyssey won't have to use up so many of it's resources. Let the sub amp PEQ do the heavy lifting. no. i don't have the tools required to measure effectively and so the amp's PEQ is sitting unused. (I'll think of some more questions shortly) definitely keep the suggestions coming. i don't mind tweaking and playing - and i'm certainly not disappointed in it's current performance - i just know it can be better with some time and effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i take it back..some quick searching shows that my audyssey mic might in fact be perfectly suitable for LFE measurements and I might be able to use my laptop's soundcard. it won't be tack sharp accurate, but it'll be far better than nothing at all. i'll play around with it tonight and see what i can come up with. the joys of owning a big boy sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Dang,I should have sent you home with my Autosound2000 cd......crap, I didn't think to ask what you had. Do you have an SPL meter, or do I have to send a CARE package to Dallas? If you're not set up to run REW, you can plot your room with a disc of test tones and some graph paper. It's REALLY easy to do. Instructions can be had with a phone call[]. You want to find the frequency that's the loudest in your room (usually a room node). You then use Your sub amps PEQ to knock it down. You then run Audyssey to take care of what's left. To set phase, you play some test tones around the crossover setting of your system. You want the mains and the sub both playing simultaneously. You adjust the phase on your sub amp so that your SPL meter reads the highest (least ammount of cancellation). I forgot to mention that your sub comes with free technical assistance. I need to build up some credits for my next stupid i-pod call !!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 If you like the sub now, just wait till you get it dialed in. Most people really don't utilize their subs full potential. They buy the baddest sub they can afford, throw it where it looks good, semi-level match it and forget it. As long as they can feel the bass they think it's all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 you mean i have to do MORE work? now that i have the sub i can start researching this stuff and applying it - before it was all just very conceptual. i will definitely be calling you at some point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 you mean i have to do MORE work? now that i have the sub i can start researching this stuff and applying it - before it was all just very conceptual. i will definitely be calling you at some point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Anytime. For the record, boomy bass is usually a peak in frequency response. That frequency is just louder than any other. That's fixed with your PEQ. Muddy bass is normally caused by phase being out. The bass notes from your mains and sub get to your ears at slightly different times. Both issues are correctable and make a huge difference in what you hear. You should have heard the IB with no corrections. I had a peak at around 50 Hz in my living room that was about 15 dB louder than most other frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 you mean i have to do MORE work? You haven't started yet[]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tragusa3 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 From my limited knowlege, it seems the horned subs need more work than most. I experimented heavily for the entire first year before one day landing on a formula that left me SPEACHLESS! I imagine you'll go through a process. I remember enthusiasm at every step of my journey. Each time I'd think I had it dialed to perfection and then a new tweak would unlock new potential. I suspect that several months from now you'll look back at your early comments differently. But it is all about the journey....right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 From my limited knowlege, it seems the horned subs need more work than most. I experimented heavily for the entire first year before one day landing on a formula that left me SPEACHLESS! I imagine you'll go through a process. I remember enthusiasm at every step of my journey. Each time I'd think I had it dialed to perfection and then a new tweak would unlock new potential. I suspect that several months from now you'll look back at your early comments differently. But it is all about the journey....right? very true. i never truly expected it to be "drop-in" easy, and in spite of my whining i do like the new research and tools i need to get. i'm just glad it doesn't sound horrible even in it's current state. more like "unrefined". what/where is this speechless formula? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tragusa3 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Speechless came by combining lots of little slight improvements....and a little subwoofer vodoo magic. LOL. Really, some improvements can be linked to direct things like placement, room treatments, EQ, but some of it I don't understand. I just stumbled into it. Good news is, you're hearing lots of potential. I knew from the moment I plugged mine in that I had potential, it just had to be brought to the surface. Like you say, there were moments of WOW, but then an awful lot of unrefinement. You'll get there buddy. You just have to accept the challenge as an enjoyable adventure. If somone can't convince themselves its fun, then they're in trouble. One day you'll look back at where you started and impress yourself. I'm still not convinced I'm getting the best out of mine. But that's why I call it a hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Speechless came by combining lots of little slight improvements.... You're running duals though. That presents an entirely different set of challenges that Michael won't have to encounter. We'll have him up and running in no time. ....and a little subwoofer vodoo magic. LOL. I've got my chicken bones ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 moved the sub against both walls in the corner and so far don't hear any negatives. I did, however, uncover one of my issues around some of the bass issues. Instead of a couch, I have two arm chairs in the main watching are, and so I've been making my listening positition measurements in the middle of those two, basically a straight line from the center speaker. however, when testing music and movies i sit in one of the chairs, which are left and right of the measurement spot. there i hear boominess and the sub is very distinct, rather than melting into the system. it was VERY apparent when listening to music. so i moved one of the chairs into the measuring position and the sub melted away and sounds less boomy. i know there's some more tweaking to do with the PEQ and such, but some of my issues may very well be related to where i place my butt to watch/listen. so do i calibrate for that one good spot, or try to make it sound most pleasing for multiple spots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 EDIT If you can place your seated positions in sweet spots, then you have half the battle won. You're going to experience peaks and nulls as you walk around the room though. Bass traps in the corners will help with that. Using the PEQ on your sub amp will help also once you know where to set it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 EDIT If you can place your seated positions in sweet spots, then you have half the battle won. You're going to experience peaks and nulls as you walk around the room though. Bass traps in the corners will help with that. Using the PEQ on your sub amp will help also once you know where to set it. i think this is the route i'll go with for now. I've got some flexibility in where i place the furniture - much less flexibility in the speakers and tv. I've got a very narrow space for actual sweet spots if i am to have any sort of toe-in for imaging and right in the middle, about 2ft off the back wall the sound is the best I've heard out of all places in the room. so i'll move around some seating and look into some basic PEQ tweaks I can make. I think my best bet in the long term will be something like a behringer BFD or miniDSP and REW. i've got Morgan interested in some aesthetically pleasing acoustic panels - bass traps may not be as feasible. taking my own advice - every person's home setup has compromises of some sort, and mine will be no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I think my best bet in the long term will be something like a behringer BFD or miniDSP You've got MultEQ XT. It's superior to either of those two devices. REW is nice tool to have on hand, but not necessary in any case. Having an SPL meter would be my first priority, then you can use his test discs or your own. Just an observation ...but I'd recommend against adjusting the phase or using the PEQ of your amp. The AVR will take care of all that. Timing and response are all accounted for in a single FIR filter. Biggest thing is to go back and set the crossover points back in the AVR and on the sub amp; which MultEQ XT doesn't tell you to do. [8] Then double check the sub distance and make sure it matches the delay it computed. Audyssey is good, but not good enough to leave any sub running all-pass.... unless your mains happen to sign-off way up there at 200 Hz. Getting the delay wrong by even a few feet can make transients sound wonky. Room anomalies are going to be your best buddy now. [:-*] Now that you have a sub with such technical superiority, every little thing you've read about the physics of placement and acoustics will be easy to hear. Love-Hate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i do indeed. i guess i didn't realize how advanced/superior that version of Audyssey was when compared to previous versions or other EQ options. i do go back each time and set my mains to small and the crossover to 80hz (audyssey crosses over my mains at 60hz, so i can raise without issue). i need you guys to hash out your opinions on the sub amp's PEQ and provide some further insight. I don't know enough on the subject to make an informed decision based soley on "yes, do" or "no, don't". I trust that this discussion can happen without hurt feelings or ideological warfare. i'll start digging more into room anomolies and fixes. thanks for the tech support guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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