Driver Comparison for the K 402 Horn

[mikebse2a3]

I would argue though that it makes more sense to have an unfolded horn that covers the 80Hz to 1kHz bandwidth and then add a subwoofer, rather than try to cover 40Hz to 500Hz with a folded horn and run no subwoofer...but then you're not looking at a Jub LF anymore, and then a higher xover frequency makes the 2" less interesting than a 1" in my opinion.

Interesting choice DrWho.

First I'm completely satisfied with the integration that my 2-way Jub/K402/TAD gives after 6 years now. Speaking for myself I find integration and perceived imaging at crossovers in the 400hz to 500hz to be a much better choice than the 800hz to 1.2khz range and thus would still choose the K402 with a quality 2" exit driver and add a high quality tweeter crossing at 6Khz or so if I wanted changes up top and not a 1" exit driver crossed around 1khz as you have suggested again speaking for myself.

Otherwise I would choose a path (similar to jc's system I last seen) with possibly a quality LF like djk has shown crossed to a straight horn from approx. 80hz to 500hz then to K402/TAD or again for someone that wants more on top a K402/quality 2" exit driver with a quality tweeter again crossed at 6khz or above.

Ah to each his own just enjoy it and have fun....!

miketn

[kg4guy]

You could always use a 2" adaptor if you wanna compare a 2" driver to a 1" driver.....heck, that's how several 2" drivers are constructed anyway.

Btw, here's the most info I could find on that plot:

1) Radian 950PB+Truextent (beryllium), JMLC-350

2) BMS 4590, JMLC-200T

3) STX D1500Ti, JMLC-350

4) BMS 4538, E-JMLC-1000.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns-52.html

When I was at NAMM last January I saw more documentation showing similar results, and then there was another article that I haven't been able to find yet. Here's some info from the Be guys:

http://almin.memberclicks.net/assets/Documents/WinterSymposia/InvitedPapersWS2011/m.buck-beryllium%20domes%20for%20large%20compression%20drivers-alma%20ws%202011.doc.pdf

I went to the NAMM show it was fun so much equipment what days did you attend wish I knew I had a extra ticket to the Lakers Pacers game Sunday night.

[mikebse2a3]

Btw, here's the most info I could find on that plot:
1) Radian 950PB+Truextent (beryllium), JMLC-350
2) BMS 4590, JMLC-200T
3) STX D1500Ti, JMLC-350
4) BMS 4538, E-JMLC-1000.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/166312-waveguides-horns-52.html

When I was at NAMM last January I saw more documentation showing similar results, and then there was another article that I haven't been able to find yet. Here's some info from the Be guys:
http://almin.memberclicks.net/assets/Documents/WinterSymposia/InvitedPapersWS2011/m.buck-beryllium%20domes%20for%20large%20compression%20drivers-alma%20ws%202011.doc.pdf

Well it's hard to draw any conclusion from what I'm seeing so far. I did read in the diy link that the TAD maybe tested better than what was being shown in the wavelets plot examples. All I can say is after living with the TADs for several years I have no regrets and consider them one of the best investments I've made to my system because of the realism they are capable of producing.

heli001 might find himself wanting to try the TADs on all his horns..[]

miketn

[Chris A]

...consider them one of the best investments I've made to my system because of the realism they are capable of producing.

[Y] I concur.

Chris

[Panacea Engineering]

NO Adapters or DX 38 today.......Ahhhhh...Maybe tomorrow....We shall see.......

I am sure after everything is said and done, I WILL probably try the TADS on several different Horns...as there is certainly NOTHING to loose, in doing so...Is there? I DO know that the Beyma's will be a hard act to follow....[]

[DrWho]

I went to the NAMM show it was fun so much equipment what days did you attend wish I knew I had a extra ticket to the Lakers Pacers game Sunday night.

Ah, crazy. I was there for work so I was working the floor every day, except I think either Friday or Saturday (I forget) where they let me walk the floor to do market research. Did you get your free T-Shirt from the Shure booth? [] If so, I was working the Axient booth right next to the counter there.

[DrWho]

...consider them one of the best investments I've made to my system because of the realism they are capable of producing.

I concur.

Chris

I'd triple that, although I've never owned one for myself. The discussions just get boring if everyone just chooses to agree...gotta keep things spiced up! [A]

[DrWho]

First I'm completely satisfied with the integration that my 2-way Jub/K402/TAD gives after 6 years now. Speaking for myself I find integration and perceived imaging at crossovers in the 400hz to 500hz to be a much better choice than the 800hz to 1.2khz range and thus would still choose the K402 with a quality 2" exit driver and add a high quality tweeter crossing at 6Khz or so if I wanted changes up top and not a 1" exit driver crossed around 1khz as you have suggested again speaking for myself.

Doesn't the acoustic -6dB xover point come closer to 600Hz on the Jubilee/K402? Anyways, you could do a 500Hz xover with the 1" driver if you had a horn to do it (which is exactly what I'm trying to do).

Ah to each his own

Just a totally tangent concept, but I actually believe in the commonality of audio perception (definitely not preferences though). I only bring it up because I think it's very important to drive into the reasons for our beliefs and preferences. I almost have to remind myself daily at work to continuously challenge very logical assumptions....it's only there where the improvements can be found - (annoyingly) all the old cats have already figured out how to maximize performance under the old assumptions.

[mikebse2a3]

Doesn't the acoustic -6dB xover point come closer to 600Hz on the Jubilee/K402?

No.... every passive and active designs by Roy have the acoustical -6db at 500Hz for the Jub/K402.

Just a totally tangent concept, but I actually believe in the commonality of audio perception (definitely not preferences though). I only bring it up because I think it's very important to drive into the reasons for our beliefs and preferences.

I guess from a basic point yes a healthy human has an ability to hear in a common way but to perceive something the human brain often has an ability to emphasize or ignor things according to one's desires.

miketn

[ClaudeJ1]

First I'm completely satisfied with the integration that my 2-way Jub/K402/TAD gives after 6 years now. Speaking for myself I find integration and perceived imaging at crossovers in the 400hz to 500hz to be a much better choice than the 800hz to 1.2khz range and thus would still choose the K402 with a quality 2" exit driver and add a high quality tweeter crossing at 6Khz or so if I wanted changes up top and not a 1" exit driver crossed around 1khz as you have suggested again speaking for myself.

Otherwise I would choose a path (similar to jc's system I last seen) with possibly a quality LF like djk has shown crossed to a straight horn from approx. 80hz to 500hz then to K402/TAD or again for someone that wants more on top a K402/quality 2" exit driver with a quality tweeter again crossed at 6khz or above.

Ah to each his own just enjoy it and have fun....!

This is exactly what I'm doing with my 402's. I have the older Klipsch 1133 (1132 is still same Titanium diaphragm, but different phase plug for 2-way+Shelving EQ) with the conical extension on it, which, because of the extra length, takes the response down to 320 Hz. before rolloff, but it dies at 5K, so it behaves like a phenolic driver, but with the superior transient response of Titatnium. So, as you precisely suggested, I AM using the 1" DE-250 MYLAR compression driver at 5K-18Khz., even though it easily would cross down in the 1Khz range, since it doesn't tank until we get to 700 Hz. Dr. Who sez the plots are similar to Berrylium. Danley and Geddes agree with him (and me) in both measurements AND listening. My next move will be to go all active 3-way AND time align the stack you see in my Avatar. But it sounds great as a passive/active hybrid with no time align for now.

I'm thinking the main reason that Roy went with the K-69 is cost (cheaper to buy from Taiwan than use their own Klipsch Made K1133 and 1132). Plus I suspect it may be easier to EQ than an 1132, I'm not sure, but I think it's a cost thing.

Spoke to Bob Crites, who now has designed his own passive network for his Jubilees. He's using the K402 with the Faital Pro driver and claims it outdoes it's own specs and can go from 400 to 20 Khz........................lots good choices these days, but I do think the TADS are a good one.

The only other choice would be a JBL2446 with the True Extent Berrylium diaphragms, which don't shatter and turn to poison powder when over driven, like the TADs will never do in a home situation (but could with deaf zoned out PA guy).

Either way, W.C. will discover some really cool things in the next week or so. I can't wait to read about them.

[Chris A]

...and thus would still choose the K402 with a quality 2" exit driver and add a high quality tweeter crossing at 6Khz or so if I wanted changes up top and not a 1" exit driver crossed around 1khz as you have suggested...

See http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/150357/1557348.aspx for a related discussion on just that point.

Note that it gets somewhat difficult geometrically to get the time alignment of a tweeter set up for the listeners in the room, depending on whether they are sitting or standing (if in the near field). Care must be taken to avoid crossover effects such as phase angle and impedance stability of drivers--if using passive crossovers--if you are crossing above ~4-5 KHz. I've found that as little as 3/8 inch misalignment significantly affects the stereo imaging, at least, and overall timbre of the loudspeaker.

Chris

[Panacea Engineering]

Adapters are here and pictures to follow.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mark1101]

As far as tweeters go................you guys may remember that I was originally the stubborn 3-way guy who couldn't readily accept 2-way with the 402. Since I got the Tads I have been completely satisfied with the top end of my system. My quick and dirty in-room curves show the Tads reaching to past 19Khz.

For me it boils down to the room. I could add a 510 and the more energy and projection past 5Khz............but the room size just doesn't dictate that. If I was using my system in a bigger room or outdoors I'd add the 510. The 402 was built for a theater. It doesn't really require a tweeter in a home application.

I may still add the 510 for the sake of "finishing" the MCM system someday................but honestly I am completely satisfied with the crispy clean and detailed top end that reaches past where I can even hear.............just the way it is now. I know I really don't need it.

That said...........JWC has the 402/510 combo.........so I know what it sounds like.........and that will put out some top end brother. Bring your ear plugs or put a screen in front of it. Nothing stops it.

[Chris A]

Since I got the Tads I have been completely satisfied with the top end of my system. My quick and dirty in-room curves show the Tads reaching to past 19Khz.

Yes, and the point is that, if you want it to cost less, then you are going to have less overall capability and "robustness" in the design ("robustness" here is not to be confused with "power handling capacity"). Those TADs aren't cheap, but they solve a host of issues that others chase using lowest-initial-cost approaches, and it nickles and dimes them to death.

For me it boils down to the room.

This is the real reason why the commercial version of the Jub is three-way. I think a lot of folks have forgotten this point. If you intend to use your Jubs for PA or commercial movie theater duty, then by all means get the 3-way commercial Jubs because it makes sense to do so in that case.

Chris

[Panacea Engineering]

1.5" to 2" Adapters from box to K 402

[Panacea Engineering]

Looking down the throat.......

[Panacea Engineering]

The Adapter comes pre-threaded on the wide flange end, which causes you to have to install the bolts from behind the flange on the K 402 and there is VERY little room there. Also, you would have thought that they would have threaded it Standard 1/4-20, but Nooooooooooooooo, it is 1/4-24. the two bolts I have in there are way too long. The Beyma's are threaded 1/4-24 and the TAD's are threaded 5/16-24. You would think that maybe they would standardize them....? I am going out to see if I can find some 1/2" x 1/4-24 Bolts. If not, I will drill out the flange and use standard 1/4-20 hex heads. Again, you NEVER have what you need.....when you need it.....!

[mark1101]

So how does it sound? Hurry up! []

[ClaudeJ1]

I think a lot of folks have forgotten this point. If you intend to use your Jubs for PA or commercial movie theater duty, then by all means get the 3-way commercial Jubs because it makes sense to do so in that case.

In my case the 402/1133 WAS in a theater with a 510, which I didn't buy because they were overkill for home use. Besides, with the DE-250/QSC horn combo, I get a "TAD-like" top end with broader dispersion angle than I would in a 2 way, since my room is small and I sit way closer then Mark or JC.

[mark1101]

Claude,

Why would a 510 be overkill, but the tweeter you have is not? I don't get that. I thought that in your case the real reason for the tweeter was the 1133. There are several drivers you could replace that with that would allow you to take full advantage of the 402 without a tweeter. In fact, with your less is more approach, and smaller room, I'm a little surprised you feel you need a tweeter and more crosover points.

If you had a pair of Tads, woudl you still keep your tweeter for the reasons you state?