Driver Comparison for the K 402 Horn

[Panacea Engineering]

Sunday Afternoon Report:

Still playing CD's and enjoying......! Clapton/Frampton.........all is good. They (DX-38/Cinema Jubilee's/K-402/TAD 4002's) sound very good and the DX-38 is dialed in perfectly. At this point....Room Filling and Clean are the best Terms I can come up with. We will be more dtailed in the final report......It's still a BIG *** Horn......![6]

Tomorrowe will be with Tubes, so I will reserve final comparison, until after I have listened to them on some QuickSilver 300B's......These are what I am using with the Martinelli's and Eliptrac's, for normal listening. Will probably keep the base Bins on Solid State.

Claude....The Five Man Quartet is awesome......! Hotel California....well, I don't need to say anything at all...just pure Classic......Cathedral Organ is out of this world on Tape.....

More to follow..................

[Coytee]

......It's still a BIG BAD *** Horn......!

There, I corrected it for you

[A]

[ClaudeJ1]

Claude....The Five Man Quartet is awesome......! Hotel California....well, I don't need to say anything at all...just pure Classic......Cathedral Organ is out of this world on Tape.....

More to follow..................

OK, I'll be checking in. Glad you like.

[Chris A]

Tomorrow will be with tubes, so I will reserve final comparison until after I have listened to them on some QuickSilver 300Bs...These are what I am using with the Martinellis and Elliptracs for normal listening. Will probably keep the bass bins on solid state.

Recommend using the 4 ohm taps on your 300Bs since you will not have available power issues to drive the TAD TD-4002s: the sensitivity of the TADs are 110 dB at one meter at 2.83V input. I've found that the TADs don't sound very good driven with amplfiers with high output impedance (Paramount 300Bs): using the 4 ohm taps will reduce the tube amp's output impedance to a minimum.

You will likely hear a pretty big difference using those tubes since they probably have fewer gain stages than your SS amps: they should sound quite clear and realistic when playing orchestral, solo violin, bell, glockenspiel, and cymbal tracks.

FWIW: Mark Deneen has in the past recommended the use of the first track of the "Sir John Alot" recording by John Renbourne with very heavy glockenspiel to listen for this. I use that CD, too, as well as Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg - It Ain't Necessarily So CD for hearing the performance of the amplifiers/compression drivers. Roy D. typically uses tracks off the James Newton Howard and Friends CD.

Chris

[Marvel]

I've found that the TADs don't sound very good driven with amplfiers with high output impedance (Paramount 300Bs): using the 4 ohm taps will reduce the tube amp's output impedance to a minimum.

OR get output transformers better matched to the impedance of the 300B. How low an impedance do the TADs drop?

Bruce

[Chris A]

How low an impedance do the TADs drop?

Bruce,

I think it is ~11 ohms minimum. However, the effects of "low damping factor" on TADs I've found to be extremely objectionable. I believe this is related to the extremely high performance of the TAD drivers and K-402 horns that really reveals anything that isn't right in the signal chain.

The Paramount monoblocks that I had were using the 16 ohm settings (the nominal rating of the TAD drivers) --and they were awful.

Chris

[mikebse2a3]

I've found that the TADs don't sound very good driven with amplfiers with high output impedance (Paramount 300Bs): using the 4 ohm taps will reduce the tube amp's output impedance to a minimum.

OR get output transformers better matched to the impedance of the 300B. How low an impedance do the TADs drop?

Bruce

I use the 8 ohm taps on my 2a3 amps with excellent results for what it's worth.

miketn

[Chris A]

Mike,

It's interesting that it goes off at an16-ohm tap setting in the 300B amp, isn't it?

Have you tried your amp on the 4-ohm setting--assuming that it has one? If so, what was the result?

Chris

[Marvel]

My Moondogs use Magnequest outputs with a 2500 ohm primary. This should be just about ideal for the 2A3. You would think the single driver wouldn't have too much of a swing compared to some of the crossovers in use, with all the interactions going on.

Bruce

[mikebse2a3]

Chris even though a SET amp is more forgiving of load mismatch I still prefer to maintain a reasonable match. Remember any deviation on the secondary load side of the audio output transformer is reflected on the primary side of the audio output transformer that the output tube drives. Power, distortion....etc will be affected to some degree so there is usually no one correct tap when considering how many typical loudspeaker's impedance varies with frequency. I look at the impedance of the loudspeaker in the frequency range that an amplifier will be operating and try a tap up or down that is close to that.

In the case of the Jub/K402/Tad active I set my LF amp on the 4 ohm tap and the HF amp on 8 ohm taps.

miketn

[Panacea Engineering]

Sorry Guys,

No music or testing today.............My DSL connection went down somtime during the night and I have been fooling with AT&T most of the day. The good thing is........We have upgraded our connection speed and we have a new HS Modem. The old one just plain wore out after about ten years of constant use.

More to follow tomorrow............

[Guest David H]

Looking forward to your thoughts on the Jub-402 combo. I have seen several glowing reports on them, but have not had the oportunity to hear the big horns in person.

Personally I am not a big fan of the active crossovers though I own several, and I do agree they have their place, and can sound excellent. I mostly use the actives as tuning tools, then back engineer passives from there.

My personal beef with active crossovers is taking an analog signal, converting to digital, then back to analog. I understand this is no different than using a compact disk or digital music server, but I hate to do it to my analog recordings.

One major acception is inputing a digital signal into the active crossover and attenuating the output. This is ideal.

That being said, I am reasonable sure that I would not be able to identify the active in a blind A/B comparison.

BTW: Thanks for taking the time to do these comparisons, this takes alot of time and effort, but is appreciated.

Dave

[Panacea Engineering]

OK, results are in, final tabulation is done…………..First, let me tell you what I have been doing for the last two days along with everything else that is going on here and in SC. I should be on the road right now, but I am waiting on a freight shipment to show up so I can take it with me.

Speaker Set Up; Left Corner: Golden Jubilee with a Martinelli 22” Horn driven by a Beyma CP750ND on a two way passive crossover.

Right Corner: Commercial Jubilee KPT-KHJ-LF Jubilee with a K-402 Horn driven by a TAD 4002 on an active DX-38 crossover, loaded with Roy’s settings, for that combination.

I drove these for the first test with a S. A. E. A502, 200 watt per channel Solid State Amplifier. We played these for about five or six hours and then it was time to change over to Tubes. For Tube Amplifiers, we used QuickSilver 300B’s for an additional seven or eight hours, playing various CD’s, DVD’s, some pre-recorded Organ on a Studer 807 and even FM Radio. Output Channel One of the DX-38 was to the LF Cabinet Jubilee and Channel Two fed the K-402/TAD.

Listening Results:

After about twenty total hours of listening SS/Tubes, we found that the sound quality was as good as the Martinelli Horn/Beyma combination. While the smaller Martinelli was a bit more directional (smaller Sweet Spot) the K-402 had a room filling quality that allowed you to move freely around the backside of the room and still feel the clarity and preciseness’ of the chosen source. Instrument sounds came from the location of where they should be in a Live performance and vocals were not tiring or harsh, just clear and crisp. The five man, Northfield Four Quartet, singing “Roll Jordan Roll”, A’ Capella, is just something to behold, as it is truly a moving piece of music and is a very good test of the system. I also have another DVD of a group called “Rocapella” that does some awesome stuff….! R to R Organ stuff was stunning and I swear that they dug deeper than I have heard before….maybe it is the new recorder, who knows. It absolutely sounded Live and I found NO fault with the active setup, that I can honestly report. The Tube amps gave the sound a more Mellow/Warm quality, which is to be expected. I truly believe SS LF Base Bin and Tube HF Top is the way to go.

The last couple of hours, we switched sides and put the K-402 left and the Martinelli on the right side, to be sure that we were being fair in our testing. Finally, we put the K-402’s on both left and Right sides of the room. The only drawback to the K-402 is its size and being able to aesthetically fit it into a sound room or Home Theater, pleasingly. It could be hidden behind the screen or dressed up in some type of nice enclosure, to give it more WAF appeal. We don’t have that problem as the Dogs really do not care about the looks. The only drawback to the DX-38 is the setup time and probably its future availability. Once it is set, you can forget about it. I am also sure that there are other processors out there that will do an equally good job of the DX-38, but it is what we used for this test. I like Dave, would have a hard time picking the difference in an A/B Test, if I was stationary. Moving around the sound stage would certainly give away the smaller horn, as its Sweet Spot is much smaller than the 402’s. Overall, I would have to rate the K-402 as, as good a sound, as I have ever heard from Horns of any kind. I am sure that there may be other horns out there that are as good, as these two, but I have yet to hear them. The K-402 can produce much more than we ask from it, for these tests. I was pleasantly surprised that it sounded that good and the Horn is everything that it has been reported to be. As far as I am concerned, I would certainly have NO problem in recommending it as a top for the Cinema Jubilee, in a two way active or passive setup. Please remember, that this is purely MY opinion and your mileage may vary…..! Will I go active from here on out? Nah, as I am perfectly satisfied with the Passive setup that I use daily, but the K-402/TAD’s will be available for auditioning, to anyone that would like to hear them.

I am leaving for SC later on this afternoon and will not return until September 10^th. There are two other things that I would like to try with the K-402’s when I get back. One, to try the Beyma 750’s on them and to drive them with the MiniDSP that we have borrowed. But my time is running short and I have to get on the road, very soon….!

[Johnny's Jill]

Very nice diplomatic comparison. Nice write up as well.

Seems that you are pleased with the combination, I would certainly how so for the $$$$. I will be anxious to see how your Beyma's perform in comparison to the TAD's, as it is a much more reasonably priced driver to obtain.

I have used the Mini DSP, its an impressive little unit, especially considering the cost.

Craig 73

[Coytee]

The only drawback to the K-402 is its size and being able to aesthetically fit it into a sound room or Home Theater, pleasingly. It could be hidden behind the screen or dressed up in some type of nice enclosure, to give it more WAF appeal

Can't help you on the size comment! (although my understanding is the size is part of the equation as to why it sounds so nice)

For the asthetics of it though... these belonged to Kudret. He had the naked 402 like you have and built the tops and side grills on the bass bin.

[mikebse2a3]

R to R Organ stuff was stunning and I swear that they dug deeper than I have heard before….maybe it is the new recorder, who knows.

Maybe.....but if you had the 32Hz PEQ applied it adds a significant weight in that region. If your comfortable tweeking the EV DX38's settings now you can bypass or "0" this setting and play again to experience it's contribution to the accuracy in this region.

I appreciate the time/effort you put into this W.C.

miketn

[mark1101]

Yeah, nice review. You put in a lot of time.

I'm a little surprised that the Martinelli comments were mostly made about some beaming and having less dispersion. My experience with the wooden horns is that they sounded really good, just small to me. That was what stood out to me. They just sounded like a small speaker compared to the 402.

But I guess when you plan to sell something you don't want to bash it too badly. []...............just kidding of course. [6]

I hope to get to visit at some point and vcheck out your new digs and hear all this good stuff for myself.

[seti]

Yeah, nice review. You put in a lot of time.

I'm a little surprised that the Martinelli comments were mostly made about some beaming and having less dispersion. My experience with the wooden horns is that they sounded really good, just small to me. That was what stood out to me. They just sounded like a small speaker compared to the 402.

But I guess when you plan to sell something you don't want to bash it too badly. ...............just kidding of course.

I hope to get to visit at some point and vcheck out your new digs and hear all this good stuff for myself.

It seems he has enough gear to have a hell of a speaker shindig.

[ClaudeJ1]

But I guess when you plan to sell something you don't want to bash it too badly. ...............just kidding of course.

I don't think W.C. was planning on selling anything except more 402's since Martinelli's are rare, no longer made, and quite a gorgeous, great sounding horn on his even more rare (is that redundant?) Golden Jubes.

K-402's are like the old Doritos commercials: "Don't worry, we'll make more." .......in lower volumes to play at high volumes of course.

[mark1101]

I was just kidding.[]