eq_shadimar Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Ok I have the parts to fix my Fisher 500B on the way which means I am going to start looking at turntables. I have read all the threads and think that I have a good handle on what to look for. Here is my question. Is the phono input on the Fisher 500B compatible with the modern turntables and cartridges or will I have to get some sort of pre-amp. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 The 500B unit should have the phono-preamp already in it. You could still use an external phono-preamp if you wanted to and run it in through a different input(i.e.- you don't want two phono-preamps in same input to the preamp). External phono-preamps usually sound better than the built-in ones. Compatability should not be a problem. The Fisher was probably intended for a moving magnet (MM) cartridges. So just be sure that if you use an external phono-preamp, make sure that it has the proper provision for the type of cartridge you are using, moving magnet(MM) or moving coil(MC). The voltage output is different enough between the two types to where they are not interchangable. ------------------ Tom's Money Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted June 11, 2002 Author Share Posted June 11, 2002 Ok so bear with me here. Are MM cartridges still current technology. In other words if I buy a brand new turntable (below $300) what type of cartridge would it likely to come with? I suppose that I should choose the turntable first and worry about making it work after I get it. Thanks, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 If planned TT is <$300, you would want to use a MM cart. Going with a good MC will likely cost you as much or more than you've invested in the TT. I have an older Technics TT with a MM cart connected to my 800B. Using an MMF-7 w/MC with the CJ/Laurel combo. ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 06-11-2002 at 11:09 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 At 300.00, you will definitely be getting MM. MC cartridges start MUCH higher. I consider them a fetish for those with lots of money. I don't know of any MC cartridges with user-replaceable styli. As you will recall, I've three cartridges with children-destroyed styli, so that could get painful. Even a middle of the line MM will provide superb LP reproduction. Your Fisher will definitely be set for MM. It would be useful to know the capacitance for matching purposes, but this is also something of a tweak and most MM carts/phono imputs were pretty close to standardized in the mid-range prices. I'd give a strong recommendation to haunting Ebay for a TT/cartridge. I've seen TT combos going for a few hundred dollars that cost up to 10 times that new. Of course, there is some risk, but if you study the seller ratings closely and they offer a return policy, you can do very, very well. I intend to do just that. BTW, I got my Empire 598 Mark II that way. As I've never yet found anyone who could explain the micro adjustments on it, I've dedicated it to 78 use...but it makes one helluva 78 spinner! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted June 11, 2002 Author Share Posted June 11, 2002 Thanks guys!! I think I have a handle on it now. BTW it is Dave's fault that I am asking these questions. I was at Dave's house along with some other board members this weekend listening to his KHorns and came to the realization that while I am not necessarily in the vinyl/tubes is better camp, there is tons of great music that will never get transferred. I figure I can spend a couple of hundred bucks to have the choice and who knows ya all may convince me yet Dave what model of TT did you have? Also if anyone is bored and wants to cruise through the 21 or so pages of turntables available on ebay and give me recommendations that would be awesome Thanks, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 My current TT is a Sony P-4300 with an Audio-Technica cartridge that I cannot identify. I don't care for it for a variety of reasons...but at 25.00 it was something of a bargain. The AT came with my Ebay Empire. Much prefer my Grado, but still haven't replaced stylus my daughter whacked. I have a Pioneer PL-610 in the garage you are welcome to borrow indefinitely to try cartridges or whatever. It is at least as good as the P-4300, though on rare occasions it loses it's quartz lock and wows. Turning it on and off relocks it. Really doesn't happen often...probably only when audiophiles are visiting:-). I'll be getting my next TT from Ebay. I think your attitude is the healthy one. As you saw in my stacks, there is over a 100 years of phono source material. As I've stated, I believe that digital sources can provide a musical experience equal to that of phono...but only at a price many of us cannot afford. Further, those in the digital only camp will never have the experience of hearing a jewel like Bill's Verve Louis and Ella disc. Why be locked out of 90% of the available music for the lack of a few hundred bucks? Espcially when the average LP goes for 4 bucks, sometimes FREE! I don't care how the music gets here, as long as it does! Will try to take a look at the Ebay pages in a while. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 In case anyone's interested in MM vs. MC differences, NeedleDoctor has a nice little article that explains. http://www.needledoctor.com/nd_mm_mc_explanation.cfm I'm not one who subscribes to the notion that MC has no merits. An MC setup does require the careful consideration of all components included in the system, or the potential benefits will not materialize. ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 06-11-2002 at 01:47 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 1357999195 A Denon currently a 103.52 with about 6 hours to go. Described as lightly used, but no mention of cartridge type. These were highly regarded and well made. 1358028508 A linear tracking Technics described as near-mint. 49.00 with 8 hours left. I suspect many are staying away because they don't know what it is. Remember the discussion of the RABCO arm Sunday? Definitely a good conversion piece, but I never heard one. 1358558322 Another Denon. Looks nice. 1357390999 This could turn out to be a bargain even with shipping from UK. These are really nice, and the UK location will keep the bidding down. Don't know why...parcel services operate from there just fine. 1358000253 Including this one because at the current bid of 20.00 it is definitely a bargain. The Shure M91ED is still used by a lot of vinyl heads. Pluse, if you upgrade, you can get a 78 stylus for the Shure and the 1229 has 78 speed. Nice upgrade path... I only went for the first couple of pages listed "Ending First," and picked at the things I liked. Since I need to stay up for my own future acquisition, I'll try to email you any good things I see. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 I definitely understand the enthusiam to purchase a turntable,(I'm a vinyl junkie) but would like to suggest you spend a few moments to educate yourself a bit on used turntables and what to look for, and what not to look for before taking the dive in murky waters fishing for a used one. Here's an informative article with this link. Buying Turntables It has much useful information. You may also want to ponder possibly buying a new inexpensive TT that comes with a cartridge and be through with it. No repair or setup worries, a warranty, and two entry level tables sell for about $300.(The Project 1.2 and the MMF-1) So whether you choose used or new, enjoy the vinyl. BTW, I am not a turntable saleman, but think a little information can go a long way toward making a satisfying purchase. Klipsch out. This message has been edited by jazman on 06-11-2002 at 02:21 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Ummm.... Well, I would stay away from Direct Drive turntables. Also, quartz-lock is not recommended either. As for the Direct drive tables, the motor is attached directly to the spindle/platter so the vibration of the motor is linked directly, which in turn, gets transmitted to the stylus. Direct Drive, which is markteted as a savior actually produces more flawed sound and really should be avoided. Almost 99% of the good tables from cheap to mega buck employ BELT DRIVE which isolates the motor from the platter and stylus (Also, cheap linear tracking tables are terrible sonically. Linear tracking arms dont get acceptable until they are configured as an AIR BEARING. The rear of the arm rides on a cushion of air provided from a modified pump housed in another room for isolation. The most well-known example is the Eminent Technology ET-1/2. Poul Ladegaard's Air Bearing Tangential Tonearm also is a DIY option. Those cheap linear arms transmit more noise than anything). As for Quartz Lock speed control, this is another bad thing as it is always making minor corrections to keep the speed stable which ends up resulting in poor sonics which creep in via your perception of pacing and rhythm. This was another marketing ploy that hit big time but is NEVER used on any good tables. Basically, the simpler the table, the better. You want a rigid tonearm connection with a very good close tolerance bearing. You want a way to remove resonance from the sylus with either a sprung susupension of some form of isolation. Stay with Belt drive and a quiet motor also damped from chasis. While seemingly a pain, it is best to try for the all manual table as automated devices add to the resonance. You want te platter and bearing to be as good as possible. The platter should not be resonant and there are many theories here. Also, I would be careful about buying a cartridge on ebay as well as this is just about the most fragile part in the entire audio chain and is almost always used and abused although you can get lucky. I just would not count on it. Usually you can borrow a table from a friend to see if you are interested. There are a plethora of inexpensive TT options from Music Hall, Sumiko, Rega etc. Some of these models can be found used in the 200 range. A brand new Sumiko ProJect 1.2 can be found for 279 with cartridge. This would work fine with your Fisher. Also, you must be careful with the Grado cartridges in certain table/tonearm combinations as they have a tendency to flutter. As for MC cartridges, one of the best compromises is the High Output MC cartridge which can be used with any ole MM phono stage. They tend to offer better sonics than most MM cartridges and dont cost an arm and a leg. The Sumiko Blue Point can be found on sale and is a very good cartridge. YEs, it is delicate and one must be very careful in use. But the reward is excellent sound, far better than 95% of the Grado line. kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 06-11-2002 at 03:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hey, That Technics looks just like the one I have at my mothers. Of course, Mobile has just crushed me because it is both direct drive and quartz locking. Looks like another upgrade after I get it here. Wife is now insisting I sell something. Anyone want to buy a Klipsch KSW200 subwoofer in near mint condition? ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hey Crash...don't be crushed. If it sounds good, it is good, and neither anything MH or myself can say can change that fact. MH: There is truth in all you say. However, none of it is true all the time, or for all listeners. I never heard in flutter or speed issues with the PL-610 except the rare occasion it lost lock completely. As to DD, certainly it is far less desirable than belt drive, but not cheap belt drive that is so flimsy as to fall apart, or belt drive that is worn and can't be replaced. My P-4300 Sony cost me 25.00 from a garage sale, and offers superior sonics to anything digital I own. Do I want to upgrade? You bet your boots...but money IS an issue to some of us. As to MC, you need to totally eliminate the TT as an issue before you are likely to hear the difference. As for me, I am not likely to ever be in that income level, so a good MM is likely to stay in my future. Now, Grado issues. I hear a lot of opinions about them. Not having had the opportunity to try them in a host of arms, I can only say I've never had an issue. My bet is that they will sound super on almost anything in the class we are talking about, i.e., Sony's, Pioneers, Duals, Denon's, etc. Would I put one in an SME arm? Probably not, but then the only way I'll ever have an SME arm is if I steal one. When I purchased my Signature, it was the first thing my wife ever mentioned as IMMEDIATELY sounding better than it's predecessor. Wife approval is more important to me than audiophile group approval. Joe Grado is no idiot. The Shure M91 can be found for almost nothing, yet large numbers of vinyl freaks absolutely swear by them. The Empire 800-range, espcially the 808, has developed a cult following. Why? Damned if I know...they must like the sound. Wonder where they get styli for them... Anyway, the point is that an audiophile on a budget who wants to get into vinyl shouldn't be made to feel it is pointless without spending megabucks. A hundred bucks on Ebay for the right deal will yield a TT/cartridge that will outperform all but the very highest dollar digital gear...which I can't afford anyway. Of course, that is pure opinion...but at least it is opinion that almost anybody can afford to test for themselves! Bottom line: If you want to try vinyl, get ANY decently constructed TT in as little use condition as possible and with a good name cartridge/stylus in known condition (replace the stylus if there is ANY doubt), and you will either be happy, or you will then know what you need to get that way. Yours in good audiophun, Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 I understand what you are saying to a certain extent, but you must remember, you can now get a good, well engineered, simple turntable WITH cartridge for around $280 that will kill most tables of that era. I am not talking mega bucks here. Not at all. A Sumiko Blue Point on sale is in the $140 range, not insanity or $$$. A tweaked Thorens used would kill those tables as well. OK, perhaps an old Pioneer PL-41 might be presentable and nice to look at. See this unit: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1359040859 Still, the condition might be circumspect. Direct drive and quartz lock are not a good thing. I really dont recommend getting these type of tables for people anymore as they just arent near equal to the simple $279 (with cartridge) tables I listed. To be honest, I dont even think it is worth getting into vinyl from scratch if you arent going to invest in something capable of quality vinyl playback. I understand your point, however. But why waste ducats on something mediocre when you can have something of much higher quality for a bit more. I dont know if I agree that these type of rigs you mention beat decent digital. I have had many turntables and set up many for friends and clients. I have an old Pioneer PL-514 that I took the auto return off of and tweaked to get good sound. I put the bare bones Grado GTE-1+ on this and got ok sound. But this little thing really comes nowhere near even the basic Sumiko or Music Hall MMF you can find in the 200 range. And more importantly, it doesnt beat good digital like a used Rega, Tjoeb, or Cambridge Audio machines. That is why I think it's important to spring the bare minimum to try to give vinyl a chance if you really want to go that road. You can SELL these turntables all day for a $50 loss and call it a draw. Besides, why not give vinyl more than a fighting chance here? We're not talking monster ducats. But in order to overtake OK digital these days of the likes of the above names, I think you need to consider a bit more. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 06-11-2002 at 05:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 We're close enough philosophically to call it even. The PL-41 is definitely a good deal at the moment. If we still have a difference, it is probably the definition of "decent digital." I consider it out of my price range, well into the 5 figures. Below that, even a DD turntable with a M91 rules musically. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Dave, I agree we are on the same page here. Believe me, I have defended vinyl on here over the last year or so till I'm blue in the face. And I dont think you need to spend $500 on a TT to get damn good sound. But an el-cheapo direct drive unit with a mediocre cartridge has a bit of a rough time with a $425 used Rega Planet or Tjoeb player with upgraded 6922. I dont think this type of rig will turn the diehard digital fan into anyone appreciating analog, to be honest. I dont think you need to get into 5 figure digital to pass a direct drive Japanese player (I think an old used Thorens tweaked a bit would also have GREAT potential but be more work). I dont know how many four figure digital players you have heard in the last few years but some of these units are getting mighty nice. I hate to say it, but in my opinion, cheap vinyl from these old direct drive machines just doesnt overtake digital in the four figure area. You must realize, this is coming from a vinyl addict who has about 5000 of the damn beasts! But I do believe those two players above, set up correctly, can potentially wax a 5k player on a good day with nice vinyl. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 06-11-2002 at 06:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Well, MH... My old Technics SL-1300 is direct drive...and it works pretty damned well...just as it did in 1975 when I bought it...but...then again...that was the EARLY Technics direct drive models...BEFORE quartz-lock entered the picture AND...BEFORE they made alot lighter weight platters, etc...like they did later on...rumble on mine is EXTREMELY LOW...wow and flutter is also EXTREMELY LOW...but then again, when Technics first came out with THEIR direct drive turntables...they were trying to outperform the "big dogs" of the turntable world and, as we all know...once a company grabs a share of a market...they often tend to let things slide and rest on their laurels while marketing lesser quality items!! Such was the way with later Technics turntables, too!! Lightweight pieces of junk! The only linear tracking turntable I ever heard that performed well enough for me to consider it was one made by Mitsubishi...it was VERTICAL...not horizontal...kinda strange looking...but it sure sounded good, when I heard one...in late 70's/early 80's. The Rabco's were ALWAYS a piece of junk!! If you decide to go with direct drive, anyway...then it is hard to beat the earliest Technics versions...the models: SL-110; SL-120; SL-1100, SL-1200, SL-1300....after these early mnodels, they went downhill rapidly...with the one remaining exception being the SL-1200 in its different series designations over the years...this was one of the most popular DJ turntables in history!! Transcriptor came out with a neat direct-drive turntable that used silicone fluid and a vaned turbine for its drive and pitch system...rumble was NOT even measurable on it...but I know nothing else about it. It LOOKED as cool as the high-tech "works of art" models costing a small fortune today though!! It was called the " Reference Hydraulic" model. For old belt drives...there were alot of em...Empire 598 series "Troubadour" was a great one...PWK used one for many years. Thorens model TD125 series was highly regarded and extremely popular...as was its TD-140 and TD-160 series. Lots of good bargains in used turntables out there...but if you don't know what to look for...it is easy to get burned. There is merit in starting out with something NEW and relatively inexpensive instead of trying to find a great deal on something used...as MH stated. Especially so, if you don't REALLY know what you are looking for!! As for moving coil over moving magnet cartridges, there are significant cost differences...and other things to consider. And you may not find ANY audible difference between a top-grade moving magnet and moving coil cartridge on your turntable and other equipment...that depends on alot of other factors that lie between the cartridge/stylus combo and the sound you hear from the speakers. In the final analysis, as usual...it is best to let your ears decide...in the listening environment and hooked to the equipment YOU will be using!! But, the fact is...without a turntable, you can't do the analog thing...and there is a century's worth of analog recordings out there...many of which will NEVER likely be available in any other format!! Good Luck! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Andy, I still marvel that you probably built the 77 Klipsch Cornwalls sitting here. Someday I want to talk more about it. You mentioned an interesting table and one that I have actually used more than any other, simply by default. I worked in college Radio for close to 8 years (during school and after graduation as a Music Director advisor, Station Engineer, and DJ). During all those years we had the indestructable Technics SL-1200 in various Mk. incarnations. I must have spun vinyl on these beasts for 3-4 hours a day for over 7 years! This is not even counting the one I had in my office that I made countless tapes from! You are right in that these beasts were very well made. They had extremely rugged motors and could come to full speed in less than a quarter rotation. In this instance, direct drive is needed as belt drive would never perform for backcuing and fast speed status. And yes, these damn things sounded nice for what they were. I can use these beasts with my eyes closed! Still, the sound of a simple belt drive such as one of these Thorens units or the simple British decks of the late 60s and 70s could really show these machines up sonically. The blat factor, ability to sound of a whole, and the musical/relaxed nature just put the highly touted DD Technics in their place. Still, they were nice decks. And they could take some serious abuse! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 "I dont think this type of rig will turn the diehard digital fan into anyone appreciating analog, to be honest." Hmmm...the guy who started this thread did so after spending 5 hours at my home Sunday listening to my P.O.S. Sony P-4300 DD TT with unknown vintage AT cartridge. He has ears in the 20's, a kicking system, and I did not get the impression he was just being polite. If I can get MUCH better performance for 300.00, why don't I do it? Simple. I intend to wait for that killer deal where I get a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better TT off Ebay. I got my Khorns for 1677.00 delivered from Denver, so why not? In the meantime, this thing delivers damn good music and is not eating my LP's. Further, it delivers MUCH superior sound to my Sony CD deck, or any I've been exposed to (see above...I've not been exposed to many of quality). Believe me, I am not anti-digital. The best source machine I have is a Sony RM500 DAT deck. I do location recording when I can, and this thing grabs great sound. While I do not understand the technical side, this deck has some sort of 24 bit mode Sony calls Super Bitmapping (SBM). Skeptical at first, I've found it seems to really help. Even my best CD's transferred in the digital domain to it only sound marginally better than before (SBM only works A-D), but live stuff is awesome. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted June 11, 2002 Author Share Posted June 11, 2002 Phew leave for a couple of hours.... I really do appricate all the help guys. I am working on a deal with a guy at work to transfer some of his LP's to CD for him and he will give me all of his LP's (300+) and his TT also....to keep....for free.... He is going to tell me the model of the TT tomorrow but I figure it is hard to beat free. Dave I may take you up on your offer also. If you guys get a chance both those TT FAQ's above contain great info (for me anyway). Kelly - I saw your other posts about those Music Hall and Sumiko TT's so I looked at those before I started this thread. I think that if I decide to go new I will pick up one of those. One thing that had me worried was all the stuff the reviewer of the Music Hall TT had to do to make it sound good (the link of the needledoctor site). Now of course maybe the TT is 95% out of the box and he took it the extra 5% but it is hard to tell from his review. However even at 95% maybe it will sound better than other choices. Thanks, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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