mobile homeless Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 You need to sample some more digital. I hear what you are saying loud and clear and agree to a certain extent. But I dont think ole eq-shadi or you have the best digital to compare in the CD player area. A sony player from the early 90s would have TERRIBLE sonics. Ditto for many of the players from these companies for the next 8 years. But that era was especially bad. The use of brickwall filters and poor op amps produced extremely unmusical sound. Ditto for most of the inexspensive digital people set themselves up with. What vinyl rig are you looking for? I would perhaps consider AudiogoN as well as ebay. You stand a MUCH better chance of a great piece via AudiogoN. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 MH, The reason I brought up the early Technics DD turntables is mainly because the one I use...the SL-1300...which is also bulletproof...is one of the biggest "sleepers" on ebay!! They actually go for under 50 bucks on a regular basis...and with the exception of the very first couple years of the SL-1200 model...they perform BETTER than the SL-1200 and have an added feature or two!! Those "Post-first-year or two" SL-1200 models tend to go for 250 bucks and up, too, and their build and performance quality after the first year or two in productiion actually went downhill some too!! For an "audiophile-grade" DD model Technics turntable, one would still have to go for the SL-110, or SL-120...these two were DESIGNED to OUTPERFORM the finest belt-drives of the day...and they pretty much did it too!! Few people have even heard of them though...and that is surprising as hell to me!! Neither one of these came with a tone-arm...and the Sure SME 3009/S2 Improved model was the recommended one to use...these turntables even came with a pre-drilled mounting block for this tonearm!!, in addition to a generic arced and gridded mounting block for other "audiophile" tonearms of the day such as the Ortofon AS-212, and the Micro MA-202!!...AND they were pre-wired for CD-4 cartridges of the day, too...alot of the "audiophile" turntables of that time WEREN'T!! Technics SL-120 specs, 1975-1976: 2-speed direct-drive single-play turntable, slow-speed electronically governed direct-drive motor. Variable pitch control, separate for each speed at +/-5%, with separate wide-range pitch control for each speed under platter. Strobe light turntable speed indicator. Speed build-up time: Less than 1/2 rotation. Flutter and wow: less than 0.03%. Rumble: (weighted DIN A) -70 dB or better. Platter: 13 inch diecast aluminum, 4.4 Lbs. No tone-arm, comes with one pre-drilled mounting block for Sure SME tone-arm and a second arc-calibrated un-drilled mounting block for other tone-arm models. And the Technics isolation foot system for these turntables was viscous-damped...and worked great!! Not too shabby for a DD, is it? ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 hey right on builder. i have the sl-1950 w/ an AT cartridge. it's decades old now & still sounds excellent. real low on that ole rumble & wow/flutter. btw, got it at a garage sale in '97 for $10 (AT cart. included). ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-11-2002 at 08:08 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Eq Shadimar, I recently took delivery of a somewhat expensive (For my budget anyway.) TT. While I was waiting for it to arrive from the distributor, my retailer gave me a Music Hall MMF1.2 as a loaner. I very nearly canceled my order for the $2,000+ Clearaudio. No BS. The MMF sounded fabulous. Way better than my $1,000 cdp when compared A/B using identical selections. Not to mention it was a fairly beat up floor demo. The Clearaudio does however, take it to another level. $2,000 higher, I'm not so sure. Supposedly you can find a MMF1.2 for less than $200.00. I say, go for it. Chris ------------------ 2 channel Klipsch Cornwalls (1978) Cary CAD 300SEI amp (WE 300B's, various NOS 6SN7's) Arcam Alpha MCD cd player Accuphase T-101 Tuner Clearaudio Champion TT Rega RB250 ST arm (Six Stream wire and cable) Benz MicroAce Cartridge EAR Phono Stage HT Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear) Klipsch KV2 (center) Klipsch SW12 (sub) Marantz SR7000 receiver Toshiba DTS DVD JVC SVHS VCR Sony Hi8 VCRs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Which Clearaudio Champion did you get? The regular, Level 1, or Level 2? Clearaudio makes some nice tables. Also wondering if you got the black or clear model? I still think my Linn Sondek LP-12 is one of the most musical tables out there. It is hard to beat and exhibits more soul than a good many others more expensive. As soon as I get my Progressive-Engineering The TAble up to speed, I plan on writing a review. It is the first mega deck table I have had here weighing in at $3500 with tonearm. WAY outta my budget. kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 MH: No question that my Sony Cd player sounds like caca. I transfer CD's to hard drive and play them through my sound card. Much better, but still not threatening to the P-4300. Cheapest CD players I've heard anything good about run (Rega Planet) 1500.00. My plan for digital is to get a Card Deluxe sound card. Less than 500.00 and compared by $tereophile reviewer to a 15,000.00 Mark Levinson DAC. Since all I need is a decent DAC (since I store my CD's on RDD), seems like the way to go for me budget wise. OTOH, the best CD deck in the world can't make up for all the sonic information that simply isn't there and can't be synthesized. Jeff: 300 free LP's! Get'em while nobody cares! That's the beauty of analog at the moment: damn near FREE music that we often paid up to 20.00 for when 20.00 was 100.00. Downside: If this person is a friend, he will hate you after he quits listening to the CD transfers after about 3 months of increasing ear starvation due to insufficient stimulation. Finally, let your ears be your guide, not the rantings of all us hard *** old farts. If it sounds good, it is good. Period. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted June 11, 2002 Author Share Posted June 11, 2002 Well I have talked to another friend and in his words "I have crates of LP's if you want them, heck since I got my CD player I never listen to them any more". Damm this is too easy like taking candy from a baby Now all I need is the stuff to play them on. And I don't know Dave but you seem to know a thing or two about audio.....for an old fart that is Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Kelly, I got the basic Champion. I had my choice of a Rega RB300 or a hopped up RB250ST arm (Six Stream wiring internal and external, new counterweight, rear stub and fastening device). I chose the 250ST after reading up on arms. It seems you can tweak up the 250 to quite a high level of performance. Some people think higher than a RB300, 600, or 900 can go. Take look at the link I pasted at the bottom of this message. Clearaudio incorporates many of the same principles in their upgraded Rega arms. I plan on upgrading to Champion level 1 or 2 as soon as my wife and budget allow. Regards, Chris Rega Tonearm Upgrades ------------------ 2 channel Klipsch Cornwalls (1978) Cary CAD 300SEI amp (WE 300B's, various NOS 6SN7's) Arcam Alpha MCD cd player Accuphase T-101 Tuner Clearaudio Champion TT Rega RB250 ST arm (Six Stream wire and cable) Benz MicroAce Cartridge EAR Phono Stage HT Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear) Klipsch KV2 (center) Klipsch SW12 (sub) Marantz SR7000 receiver Toshiba DTS DVD JVC SVHS VCR Sony Hi8 VCRs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Nice to see a recommendation (sort of) for the Pioneer PL-41. As some may recall, I picked one up for $15 at a garage sale, minus a belt. After a bit of searching, I found a belt, and the thing works great. It is SUCH a simple machine, and to my eye very elegant. I did just a quick tryout with the cartridge that came with it. I haven't gotten a new cartridge, yet. Mobile, you and others had recommended the Grado Black as the inexpensive alternative, but that Blue Point is sounding impressive. Would it work with the massive tonearm of the PL-41? And are cartridges, in general, and these, specifically easy to install and adjust? What are the recommended tools? Apologies if you've already answered this...my skull is quite thick... fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Indeed, I am quite familiar with the Origin Live mods to the Rega arms. The Origin Live RB-250 has really received very good press as well. Another really good alternative to their work in the wiring domain is the Incognito wiring mod. I am getting ready to install the Rega RB-300 with the Ingognito all Cardas wire from input to output (see above). This elevates the RB-300 to a much higher plateau. Friends that have the Origin Live RB-250 say the Incognito Cardas wiring is a bit better. But the OL has the modified counter weight as well, a good upgrade as it couples the weight far better than the stock unit. What are the exact mods to your RB-250? kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Double post...oopps! This message has been edited by tblasing on 06-12-2002 at 09:46 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Anyone know if that mod is possible to an old Yamaha PF-800? When I first bought it new it seem to dwarf the quality of the rest of the gear but now I think it's being dwarfed. Any clues? I guess what I'm really looking for is an upgraded interconnect and maybe leads going to the cartridge. ------------------ Tom's Money Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Kelly, The Clearaudio mods to the RB250st include: stem - stainless steel instead of stock plastic (same thing for fasteners) arm - stainless steel instead of stock metal wiring - "Six Stream" German made internal and external (about $550 per meter retail for the interconnects) Counterweight - upgraded stainles steel w/offset center hole with adjustment Supposedly, and I'm sure I couldn't tell, this arm is way hot. Long story how I ended up with it. Was supposed to get a RB300 with "Quint Wiring". The distributor was closed for almost a month (They went to a hifi show in Germany, then to factory visits at Clearaudio and Benz.) without telling the retailer the RB300 was back ordered. In order to keep me happy, when they returned I was offered the RB250st they had brought back from Germany. It sounds pretty good to me. BTW, I got a clear plinth (WAF). Regards, Chris PS The main difference between the 250 & 300 is the spring adjustment in the 300. Some people say the 250 is better off without it. All other parts of my 250st are 300 quality or better. What do you think? ------------------ 2 channel Klipsch Cornwalls (1978) Cary CAD 300SEI amp (WE 300B's, various NOS 6SN7's) Arcam Alpha MCD cd player Accuphase T-101 Tuner Clearaudio Champion TT Rega RB250 ST arm (Six Stream wire and cable) Benz MicroAce Cartridge EAR Phono Stage HT Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear) Klipsch KV2 (center) Klipsch SW12 (sub) Marantz SR7000 receiver Toshiba DTS DVD JVC SVHS VCR Sony Hi8 VCRs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted June 12, 2002 Author Share Posted June 12, 2002 Ok I think I have a good idea on the turntable options available to me. For another $100 what accessories (cleaning kits, record clamps, mats, etc..) would you guys recommend (no need to spend the $100 if you don't want to ) Please try to inlcude any of the tools that Fini mentioned above for correctly setting up the needle, tracking, anti-skate etc.. Thanks, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page This message has been edited by eq_shadimar on 06-12-2002 at 03:03 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Buy the record washing kit from www.discdoc.com its a little pricey but does a excellant job cleaning LP's and a anti static device is a must. Craig ------------------ HH Scott 299 Amp HH Scott LT-110B Tuner HH Scott P-87 Turn Table JVC JL-F50 Turn Table Sony CDP-CA7ES CD Drive 1985 Walnut Heresey I W/Layne Audio Woofers KSW-15 Subs>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Ran across this info on the web (KAB electronics). I tend to believe it, since I have one of these and couldn't be happier with it. (I found replacing belts to be a drag after awhile.) C&S SPECIFICATIONS: * 33 45 78 RPM * Direct Drive System - Quartz Locked * F G Servo Control * Variable Speed 8% * W&F 0.025% * Peak W&F 0.035% * Rumble -79dB * Tracking Force 0-4 grs * Anti Skate Force 0-3 grs * Tracking Accuracy 2.3 degrees outside groove 0.32 degrees inner groove * Cable Capacitance 100 pF * Effective Mass 12 grams * Dimensions 17 x 15 x 6" * Shipping Weight 35 Lbs Spec's can tell an awful lot. It's a shame so many Hi End companies have chosen to withhold this vital performance info. The Hi End magazines too should be ashamed for not testing the turntables they "review". The Frequency Generator Servo Control on the Broadcast Standard produces the most consistent rotational accuracy of any known drive system. Unlike most belt drive systems, it is completely immune to both static and dynamic stylus drag. The Tonearm bearings feature very low friction of 0.007 grams and the turntable body is a 3 section constrained layer non resonant affair. The Cast 5 Lb Platter system is damped both underneath and by the 1 Lb top mat. The addition of the TD-1200 fluid damping system eliminates the arm-cartridge resonance enhancing bass response and upper midrange detail. Not to mention uncanny performance on warped recordings ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GREAT FEATURES * 1 Year Warranty * Hinged Dust Cover * 33-45-78 RPM * Cast 20 Lb Base * Non Resonant Base and Platter * 8% Adj. Speed * Target Light * Damped Cueing * Very Low Bearing Friction * Leveling Feet The really great features to take note of with the Broadcast Standard are, I believe, the rotational accuracy, tonearm precision and overall build quality. The Broadcast Standard is capable of some of the most impressive sound I have ever heard from records. And 78's are truly impressive when heard on a first rate system. When a record is playing, the tonearm should be level and parallel to the record, not angled down or up. The adjustable tonearm height in the Broadcast Standard lets you optimize this setting. It is especially useful when using cartridges of different heights and when playing Edison Diamond Discs which are over 1/4" thick. Another neat feature is the variable speed which is looped within the quartz synthesizer. This means that the variable speed settings are just as stable and accurate as the fixed speed settings. A benchmark found only in the Technics 1200 system. It can take years of serious listening to hear the many problems with low tech turntables. Most audiophiles I encounter usually have 15-20 years of experience before they give in to the Technics SL-1200. The name is usually associated with brand name hi fi, but the turntable division is a whole different animal. This is technology only a huge company with deep pockets can produce. This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 06-13-2002 at 01:57 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Here's another PL-41, just listed, if anyone is interrested: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1359846152 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 C&S, see my comments above on the Technics TL-1200. I agree it is a really solid table and bulletproof. I used them for over 3-4 hours a day for almost 8 years while in radio. HAd one in my office as well for recording and making PSAs and CARTS. Although it is a very solid table with an extremely powerful motor, it still suffers from some of the same problems that all direct drive tables with quartz lock tuning labor under. Attaching the spindle and platter DIRECTLY to the motor brings less than optimum sound that is not reflected in specs like wow/flutter/rumble. Direct drive tables do not offer the separation of the motor and the playback system that ALL tables have now turned to. Almost ALL manufactures dedicated to turntable and analog now offer motors that are literally separate completely from the chassis to avoid this the resonance (let alone the resonance of a motor connected directly to the platter). The use of belt drive is accepted across the board and is about the only way to connect the motor and platter. Almost all top flight turntables employ belt drive. Of course, belt design and shape have been a hot topic as well. The reason why radio stations use direct drive tables is several. One of the main reasons besides the improved durability is that you need the table to be able to backcue with ease and then COME UP TO FULL SPEED within a quarter of a turn or less. This is impossible with belt drive. Most quality tables have some form of suspension as well which does not work in the station either. The SL-1200 in its various versions was great in this regard. And is also, as I said, a bulletproof table. The quartz-lock tuning appears VERY stable and problem free from afar. But what table manufacturers found is that it tended to always make MINOR corrections to the speed which will affect playback. The direct drive quartz locked tables present low wow and flutter as the servo senses the speed and send the signal to the motor. But again, the motor noise is NOT isolated from the playback chain. The well designed belt drive table has a far blacker backbround and lower noise floor. The difference between a top quality belt-drive table with a good tonearm/cartridge and the SL-1200 is VERY noticable. More quiet between the notes resulting in a reduced noise floor. There is more transparency and low level detail is more recognizable. There is more space between the instruments. The rhythm and pacing is REALLY noticable. This is where a table like the Linn Sondek LP-12 really shines although it is one of the most hard to set up tables around and when off, can produce mediocre sound. But if trying to find used, I would stick with good belt drive candidates. Actually, analog is currently at its highest stage of development in its history. We have never had so many quality turntables to choose from. And these new low end tables from the likes of Music Hall, Sumiko, and others are really bringing a good option for those wanting to get into vinyl. For those with the need, there are used options as well which can come in handy with 78rpm. I personally think that if anyone is really into vinyl, you owe it to yourself to give some of the better tables a listen (companies like VPI, Basis, Clear Audio, Linn, Rega, Pink Triangle, BLue Note, some SOTA, conditioned Thorens, . The difference really can be startling to say the least. You dont know what you are missing here. It's a major step up. kh Want to see some of the latest at the extreme along with a few low price contenders? Some CES show attendees. I have the Progressive Engineering table here now. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/103523.html ps- Fini, that is a nice Pioneer PL-41! One of the things you might have to worry about is the condition of the bearings in the tonearm. These is a place were a bit of abuse can hurt you. I am not sure how the Sumiko would do here. I think it would be ok. It has better suspension quality than the Grados which have problems here. Let me check on it for you. ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 06-13-2002 at 08:56 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 Sounds a bit like the Technics 1200 vs. belt-drive debate, like the great Cable debate is partly outside the realm of physical measurability and actual specifications. Guess I will have to find a situation where I can hear an A/B comparison for my own ears. From experiences I have had so far, owning both, I haven't noticed any problem with pacing, rhythm, blackness, or that ether stuff between the notes with this 1200, plus, I like all its other great features. The key here is in the phrase "you don't know what you are missing". Sometimes that can be ok, if what I am expreriencing with my particular record collection does it for me and my own ears and what I am really missing is more like having a set of ears that belong to another being. Later when I get my living room "remodelled" to fit the upcoming audio improvements, maybe I will have space to set up some kind of A/B comparision and fini can bring over his growing collection of belt-drive turntables for comparision. You can get essentialy the same great direct drive techhology as the Technics 1200 for 100 times the price if you want: http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?258 -lipped and horn PS: for those that want to know more about different drive systems, check out this site, it clarifies the difference between ordinary quartz lock and the phenomenal system in the Technics 1200, which I personally am convinced is the best TT for the money, far outperforming much more expensive audiophile units. I am not much for perceiving those strangely named quasi-mystical qualities which seem to be used mostly to justify additional expenditure. As a lifelong drummer and student of music, I assure you there is nothing wrong with the "rhythm and pacing" of the music produced by a Technics 1200 which is "dead on" and does not "hunt" for the speed.. As far as "blackness" goes, there are many shades, as the painter Ad Rheinhardt showed us. http://www.kabusa.com/ttdrive.htm ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 06-13-2002 at 06:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 I don't know much about the Technics turntables after 1977...except that there were alot of them that were direct drive and quite inferior to the SL-models 110, 120, 1100, 1200, and 1300 of 1974-1976...alot of the later models had much lower platter weightt and such...it seems the 1200 series carried on the tradition of the earlier models in the "high-end" bracket of Technics quality, though. One thing I DO KNOW, though...in the early Models, the platter was NOT attached directly to the motor...it wasn't attached to ANYTHING...it was a PART OF THE MOTOR!!...you might say that the "rotor" of the motor remained stationary in the base, while the "stator" moved, since the stator was built into the platter!!...That is why they had such low rumble!!...the platter had just one plain bronze bushing bearing in the center, but it was "floated" in the magnetic field of the motor windings!! It kept wow and flutter to a minimum too!! Technics was the ONLY turntable with that kind of direct drive...the rest of them were either directly driven by a gear reduction assembly instead of a belt, or they were attached directly to the rotor sticking out the end of the motor....Technics was unique in that part of the weight of the dynamically balanced aluminum platter was actually the magnets of the motor itself!!...and that allowed the platter to "float" in the magnetic field of the motor and further reduce rumble!! If you have a technics turntable from back then...check it out...pretty cool!! They also made some audiophile quality belt-drives early on...but its later ones are nothing to jump up and down about! One very rare early Technics direct drive is the SP-10-II, came without tonearm...and its specs were ungodly for its time!!...but it was also about 500 bucks in 1976!! One of the most expensive turntables made then!! Go figure...in 1976, 500 bucks for the turntable, another 145 bucks for the SURE/SME tonearm, and another 145 bucks for the best cartridge of the time...almost 800 bucks total....in friggen 1976!!!! That was two months pay for me, then!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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