max frequency of 12 guage wire at 100% skin depth = 4150hz ?

[Guest " "]

Makes a good case for multiple conductor of different guage vs using standard 12 guage

Table 1: American Wire Gauge (AWG) Cable / Conductor Sizes and Properties

AWG	Diameter [inches]	Diameter [mm]	Area [mm2]	Resistance [Ohms / 1000 ft]	Resistance [Ohms / km]	Max Current [Amperes]	Max Frequency for 100% skin depth
0000 (4/0)	0.46	11.684	107	0.049	0.16072	302	125 Hz
000 (3/0)	0.4096	10.40384	85	0.0618	0.202704	239	160 Hz
00 (2/0)	0.3648	9.26592	67.4	0.0779	0.255512	190	200 Hz
0 (1/0)	0.3249	8.25246	53.5	0.0983	0.322424	150	250 Hz
1	0.2893	7.34822	42.4	0.1239	0.406392	119	325 Hz
2	0.2576	6.54304	33.6	0.1563	0.512664	94	410 Hz
3	0.2294	5.82676	26.7	0.197	0.64616	75	500 Hz
4	0.2043	5.18922	21.2	0.2485	0.81508	60	650 Hz
5	0.1819	4.62026	16.8	0.3133	1.027624	47	810 Hz
6	0.162	4.1148	13.3	0.3951	1.295928	37	1100 Hz
7	0.1443	3.66522	10.5	0.4982	1.634096	30	1300 Hz
8	0.1285	3.2639	8.37	0.6282	2.060496	24	1650 Hz
9	0.1144	2.90576	6.63	0.7921	2.598088	19	2050 Hz
10	0.1019	2.58826	5.26	0.9989	3.276392	15	2600 Hz
11	0.0907	2.30378	4.17	1.26	4.1328	12	3200 Hz
12	0.0808	2.05232	3.31	1.588	5.20864	9.3	4150 Hz
13	0.072	1.8288	2.62	2.003	6.56984	7.4	5300 Hz
14	0.0641	1.62814	2.08	2.525	8.282	5.9	6700 Hz
15	0.0571	1.45034	1.65	3.184	10.44352	4.7	8250 Hz
16	0.0508	1.29032	1.31	4.016	13.17248	3.7	11 k Hz
17	0.0453	1.15062	1.04	5.064	16.60992	2.9	13 k Hz
18	0.0403	1.02362	0.823	6.385	20.9428	2.3	17 kHz
19	0.0359	0.91186	0.653	8.051	26.40728	1.8	21 kHz
20	0.032	0.8128	0.518	10.15	33.292	1.5	27 kHz
21	0.0285	0.7239	0.41	12.8	41.984	1.2	33 kHz
22	0.0254	0.64516	0.326	16.14	52.9392	0.92	42 kHz
23	0.0226	0.57404	0.258	20.36	66.7808	0.729	53 kHz
24	0.0201	0.51054	0.205	25.67	84.1976	0.577	68 kHz
25	0.0179	0.45466	0.162	32.37	106.1736	0.457	85 kHz
26	0.0159	0.40386	0.129	40.81	133.8568	0.361	107 kHz
27	0.0142	0.36068	0.102	51.47	168.8216	0.288	130 kHz
28	0.0126	0.32004	0.081	64.9	212.872	0.226	170 kHz
29	0.0113	0.28702	0.0642	81.83	268.4024	0.182	210 kHz
30	0.01	0.254	0.0509	103.2	338.496	0.142	270 kHz
31	0.0089	0.22606	0.0404	130.1	426.728	0.113	340 kHz
32	0.008	0.2032	0.032	164.1	538.248	0.091	430 kHz
33	0.0071	0.18034	0.0254	206.9	678.632	0.072	540 kHz
34	0.0063	0.16002	0.0201	260.9	855.752	0.056	690 kHz
35	0.0056	0.14224	0.016	329	1079.12	0.044	870 kHz
36	0.005	0.127	0.0127	414.8	1360	0.035	1100 kHz
37	0.0045	0.1143	0.01	523.1	1715	0.0289	1350 kHz
38	0.004	0.1016	0.00797	659.6	2163	0.0228	1750 kHz
39	0.0035	0.0889	0.00632	831.8	2728	0.0175	2250 kHz
40	0.0031	0.07874	0.00501	1049	3440	0.0137	2900 kHz

[Guest David H]

What is your understaning of this information?

What is your interpretation?

Dave

[CECAA850]

What is your understaning of this information?

What is your interpretation?

Dave

Good question. I understand everything but the last column.

[Don Richard]

!00% skin depth? Maybe a significant number for power transmission usage. #12 stranded wire generally is .54 dB down at 20kHz.

[coolhandjjl]

I think you are interpreting it backwards. For higher frequencies, there is a tendency for the current to flow more outwards towards the skin of the conductor thereby using only part of the wire. So if you want 21kHZ, use 18AWG. If you use 12 AWG, you will see signal drop due to increased resistance. This makes wiring a one-way a bit of a challenge ;-)

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/American-Wire-Gauge/

[mustang guy]

SF, Haven't seen you around for a while. This is interesting. It gives credibility to the useage of that old CAT5 cable you have laying around as speaker wire. I forget the gauge translation of CAT5's 24-26 gauge to something like 14 gauge. I think you use the area which is .205 mm2 for the 24AWG compared to 2.08 mm2 for the 14AWG. That means all four pairs tied together would be about exactly 15AWG. It would then take 2 CAT5 24AWG cables to equal about a 14AWG speaker wire. Frequency max at core would be 68 kHz.

[djk]

"Maybe a significant number for power transmission usage. #12 stranded wire generally is .54 dB down at 20kHz."

Depends on the length, of course.

Star-Quad connection negates this loss.

[coolhandjjl]

The table is not about 12 AWG wire not being able to deliver low frequencies down to 20Hz.

[steve sells]

I think you are interpreting it backwards. For higher frequencies, there is a tendency for the current to flow more outwards towards the skin of the conductor thereby using only part of the wire. So if you want 21kHZ, use 18AWG. If you use 12 AWG, you will see signal drop due to increased resistance. This makes wiring a one-way a bit of a challenge ;-)



http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/American-Wire-Gauge/

I think there is some confusion here, 12 ga wire has a lot less resistance than the smaller wires like the 18 you mentioned. I have been an electrician around 30 years, just pointing out a misunderstanding. the larger the wire the LESS resistance there is. Also due to flexability and skin effect, most wires actually in use are not solid but made up of smaller strands.

[coolhandjjl]

Actually the resistance is frequency dependant. Higher frequencies move out to the outer surface of and use less of the wire. That's the real point of the table.

[Daddy Dee]

DJK,

could you say more about the star-quad connection? not sure what this is.

[Arkytype]

Might want to look at Litz-type cables. Their construction tends to negate the skin-effect endemic to conventional solid conductors.

Lee

[Deang]

"For audio frequencies, which are pretty low frequencies in the spectrum, this effect is so tiny it can barely be measured."

http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/Understanding-Skin-Effect-and-Frequency.cfm

[derrickdj1]

So, some of us don't have diminshed hearing on the HF due to age, lol. We can blame it on the wire.

[Deang]

More than half of the people I talk to on the phone have not heard of the Fletcher Munson Curves (superceded by Equal Loudness Curves). When I relate it to the loudness buttons our old equipment used to have, they begin to remember something about it. If they remember this, then that tells me something about their age.

Study the curves carefully.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/eqloud.html

http://www.roger-russell.com/hearing/hearing.htm

[WMcD]

If this is the answer, what is the question?

I think the question is whether 20 feet of 16 AWG zip cord (or like that) has significant loss over audio freqs. This is pretty much what we're using in living rooms.

Years ago I ran that test using an LMS system. Run a curve at the amp output. Run another at the speaker input terminals. Results: No change to speak of. Maybe I should haul out the equipment to convince you good fellows.

In my view, we can make some inferences when the manufacturers of super wire don't show results like this sort of loss test. They could very easily say

1) Here is the result of zip cord loss.

2) Here is the result of the super wire. Look how much better.

But they have not. I believe they can not.

The same goes for magical banana plugs, or silver solder.

My diatribe for the night. Smile.

WMcD

[Islander]

You don't need to know why the super wire sounds better. That would reveal the magic/proprietary technology.

It's enough to know that it sounds better. And costs more. And if it costs a lot more, it sounds a lot better.

See? It's not that complicated. Just read the ad, then get out your credit card and make that call.