A question of Great BASS response

[ClaudeJ1]

My post was not an exercise in precision, but rather, what I have found to be true, which is spending lots of money, watts, and/or cubic feet of space to get GREAT BASS. The smaller the room, the bigger the challenge in a home. In other places, the challenges occur when the rooms get too BIG or there is no room.

Normal living/family rooms provide 12 db/octave of gain below about 30 Hz. That is a given, irrespective of where the woofer is located in a given room. However, locating TWO front and rear wall centers, or better yet having two more in the center of the side walls, will, not only, increase potentical ouput by having more cone area and power amps to work with, it will make the bass response WAY smoother all over the room. So basically the IDEAL is 4 subs: one in the center of each wall.

It's all relative.

Edited December 24, 2013 by ClaudeJ1

[ClaudeJ1]

Come to my shop and you will hear realistic bass without subwoofers.... from modified Lascalas with some placement tweaks. I've been tweaking at it for no less then ten years. I still have a few tricks up my sleeve but I'm about 95% done.

You couldn't make that statement if you used them for HT. I'll bet they sound awesome for 2 ch though.

I'm pretty sure this is the 2 channel forum so HT has zero to do with it. I gave that mess up years ago. All it took was one get together with a bunch of grown men obsessing over an animated fish on the TV screen to make me realize it was just plain silly

LOL. I like your animated fish comment. My setup is used as mostly 2.1, with an occasional 7.1 for movies. It's just nice to have "bottomless" bass even for CD's since they flat from 4 Hz. to 20Khz.

I'm working on a separate 2 channel system with Heil AMT-1A speakers. That tweeter is is the best sound I'm ever heard above 1Khz. Speed and dynamics of a horn with uncanny "air" around it. I have a THT bass horn that I will incorporate with it from a second HT receiver to be used ONLY as 2.1, since I like Audyssey room correction and the mono Sub output on the cheap (about $120 on Ebay). I have own so many great tube amplifiers over the years and they do sound good (McIntosh, Marantz, Dynaco, HK Citation, etc.), but modern SS amps sound really good too, especially the ones that were done after the Dr. Matti Otala paper came out of the Audio Engineering Society.

Again, even with some direct radiator top end (80 Hz. and above, let's say) or exotic tweeters, I still feel strongly about having horn subs regardless, and having commercial LaScala K-43's as an upgrade to the clarity of the midbass/midrange in that horn setup. But I'm sure your bass port is a big improvement over the stock LS cab. I may look you up next time I get back to Mich.

[djk]

"I have them stacked so I believe that should technically give a 106dB/1 watt output?"

No, they would be 103dB/W but 106dB/2.83V (2W).

"All it took was one get together with a bunch of grown men obsessing over an animated fish on the TV screen to make me realize it was just plain silly"

Animated fish as in Jaws, or as in Finding Nemo?

(have not seen either one)

[SWL]

Edited November 24, 2013 by SWL

[SWL]

a bunch of grown men obsessing over an animated fish on the TV screen to make me realize it was just plain silly

That's funny. Also, that's the conclusion I came to as well....the novelty wears off after a while. Gotta admit though, that bass is cool.

[mark1101]

_{The problem I have with HT is that in my case due to budget and needs the WHOLE THING turns into a giant compromise with what ended up being an all-in-1 AVR and multiple amps in one box. You can stand there all day and say this sounds great. But it is not REALLY.........}

_{In order to do it right you really need some serious electroincs, multiple amplifiers, room treatments, etc. Almost no one on this board does that at its highest level the way many here do 2 Ch. I think most know of Ivan Messer's HT. That is a REAL HT.}

_{I have all McIntosh pre and amps on my 2CH setup and that is still a compromise.}

_{It's nice to have a good sounding HT, but in most cases it is nothing but mid-Fi at best unfortunately.}

_{I wound up with probably $25K or more into my 2Ch setup............and my HT is a $500 Sony AVR and Klipsch 500 speaker setup............with a 10" sub.............and it sounds fine to watch TV and movies. Nice and clear. Good enough. Not very good for music.}

Edited November 25, 2013 by mark1101

[ClaudeJ1]

Theoretically.... You could use a 15 DBW amp for each sub and reach reference levels, correct? THX specs are 115db on peaks I believe. I know you are referring to 2 channel but I would think the levels would be similar. I know I will not be listening above 115db.

Since I use the same system and switch from 5.1 to 2.1 in my Oppo player with Sabre DACs, the subwoofage applies to the same room with different media playback on the Oppo. (CD, DVD, Blue Ray, SA CD, etc.). I'm using 25 DBwatts of power per sub, but I typically find that reaching 105 db peaks as measured by 2 different meter apps on my iPhone, is enough to scare small children. I'm all about keeping my "average" listening levels to the 80-85 db range as measured in my sweet spot. This means my system distortion is at ridiculously low levels with TONS of headroom. PWK once personally told me that 17 db headroom was enough to handle his symphonic recordings that needed only about 60 db of dynamic range from any recording medium. I have at least 30 db of "crest factor" headroom, so I'm ready to play anything, whether from analog or digital origin.

I can't tell you fantastic the bass DEFINITION on all CD's is now. I can track every single bass note cleanly whether it's pipe organ, acoustic bass, electric 4, 5 or 6 strings, or even those that use sub harmonic sythesizers on their electric basses. Having, essentially, bottomless, low distortion, well distributed, horn loaded sub bass has just been a revealing experience for me as I go back and listen to my favorite recordings. The extra depth and dimension gained tells me how much I have been missing all these years with just Khorns and a LaScala in the middle. However, since LP's were problematic below 30 Hz. there was not much to miss. The 4 Hz. response of CD's has not been fully realized until recently, but I don't believe most studio monitors have much response below 40 Hz. typically, and with rolloff to boot, since they seem to favor little 2-way ported direct radiator boxes in the control booth, but I could be wrong there. But when you can roll down to 10 Hz. with the Danleys, you realize the ability to "dig down" into "sub-subterranean bass" you can feel an extra 2 OCTAVES you never knew was possible before.

I used to have twin Large VMPS direct radiator/drone cone subs before, but they never measured down much below 25 Hz. which was impressive enough, to adding another octave BELOW that, is simply stunning.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ClaudeJ1

[bracurrie]

Don't you have to be careful to have equipment in the chain capable of processing sound down to that level? If so what specs do you look for?

[ClaudeJ1]

Don't you have to be careful to have equipment in the chain capable of processing sound down to that level? If so what specs do you look for?

I don't know exactly what you mean. If CD's go to 4 Hz. and modern amplifiers are DC coupled, then they are not the limiting factor. The Danley DTS-10 is approx. a 24-foot long tapped bass horn, so it's 1/4 wave represents 11.72 Hz. Besides you can simply use a sine wave sweep from 10 Hz. on up and plot the response using a $50 Behringer microphone with any number of outboard phantom supply/digital I/O device with USB connection on a laptop. REW software is free, as is Audacity.

Tested mine against a $2,000 calibrated microphone and it was only 1/4 db off at 19 Khz. which I can't hear anyhow.

Hope this answers your question.

[bracurrie]

Don't you have to be careful to have equipment in the chain capable of processing sound down to that level? If so what specs do you look for?

I don't know exactly what you mean. If CD's go to 4 Hz. and modern amplifiers are DC coupled, then they are not the limiting factor. The Danley DTS-10 is approx. a 24-foot long tapped bass horn, so it's 1/4 wave represents 11.72 Hz. Besides you can simply use a sine wave sweep from 10 Hz. on up and plot the response using a $50 Behringer microphone with any number of outboard phantom supply/digital I/O device with USB connection on a laptop. REW software is free, as is Audacity.

Tested mine against a $2,000 calibrated microphone and it was only 1/4 db off at 19 Khz. which I can't hear anyhow.

Hope this answers your question.

Well in a way. But then why does a DC coupled amp inherently have the ability to go that low. Seems most of the equipment I remember reading about always seem to use 20Hz as the low end. Then there are pre-amps and in my case sound cards (because I am computer driven all digital). Seems the modern A/V amps rely on the subwoofer amp in most setups.

Things were simpler when my source material was limited but with high res digital I am now embarking on options to go lower and higher.

Brad

[Max2]

Come to my shop and you will hear realistic bass without subwoofers.... from modified Lascalas with some placement tweaks. I've been tweaking at it for no less then ten years. I still have a few tricks up my sleeve but I'm about 95% done.

You couldn't make that statement if you used them for HT. I'll bet they sound awesome for 2 ch though.

I'm pretty sure this is the 2 channel forum so HT has zero to do with it. I gave that mess up years ago. All it took was one get together with a bunch of grown men obsessing over an animated fish on the TV screen to make me realize it was just plain silly

Maybe play Rush, Moving Pictures in Blue Ray Audio. This will no doubt remove a little of that 2 channel HWY only outlook and you wont even have to turn on that pesky TV

[ClaudeJ1]

Don't you have to be careful to have equipment in the chain capable of processing sound down to that level? If so what specs do you look for?

I don't know exactly what you mean. If CD's go to 4 Hz. and modern amplifiers are DC coupled, then they are not the limiting factor. The Danley DTS-10 is approx. a 24-foot long tapped bass horn, so it's 1/4 wave represents 11.72 Hz. Besides you can simply use a sine wave sweep from 10 Hz. on up and plot the response using a $50 Behringer microphone with any number of outboard phantom supply/digital I/O device with USB connection on a laptop. REW software is free, as is Audacity.

Tested mine against a $2,000 calibrated microphone and it was only 1/4 db off at 19 Khz. which I can't hear anyhow.

Hope this answers your question.

Well in a way. But then why does a DC coupled amp inherently have the ability to go that low. Seems most of the equipment I remember reading about always seem to use 20Hz as the low end. Then there are pre-amps and in my case sound cards (because I am computer driven all digital). Seems the modern A/V amps rely on the subwoofer amp in most setups.

Things were simpler when my source material was limited but with high res digital I am now embarking on options to go lower and higher.

Brad

With old tube amps, it takes lots of "iron" to go down there. It's all about the output transformers. While there may be a significant rolloff because of this, I don't know because I have never needed to measure that aspect of amplifier performance. I do know that, regardless of coupling, Solid State amplifiers can get into the single digits with insignificant rolloff and the "standards" of measurement have never demanded it in the specs.

Going higher has never been a problem. Even ancient theater 2-way system can be EQ'd for more top end sizzle. My hearing has gone from 17Khz to 12Khz. max in the last 30 years. Paying the price from my garage band and club days I guess. So I limit my volume to a very satisfying level of 80-85 db.

Now the low end is where most engineering feats have occurred in the last 30 years, since Tom Holman, formerly of Lucasfilm has promoted THX in theaters and contributed to what we now know as 5.1 HT sound.

Tradition is the only reason people don't spec. anything below 20 Hz., but a 10-100 Hz. sine sweep and a good mic. will tell you the real story. We CAN have 10 hz. performance, and if we wish, even below that. BUT one must question the sanity and diminishing returns of that extra expense. One of the nice features of a Tapped Horn design is that it behaves better when the driver resonance is 1.5 to 2x the cutoff frequency. As an extreme example, a woofer with an 18 Hz. free air resonance would work best in a 30 foot long tapped horn. Not very practical or cheap, but it can be done.

Paul Klipsch, during the development of the MCM 1900 system, was quite impressed with the performance of a 2" Gauss driver that went out to 19 Khz. He said if a driver can do 19 K, then it will be better at doing 10 Khz. than those that barely make it there. Look at the modern berylium compression drivers that easily get to beyond 20 Khz. as an example. Not super tweeters required, but they are pricey.

So if we can borrow the same idea for the low end, the same thing can be said. Horns are inherently narrow band devices, (unless you are Tom Danley and you have figured out how to make a Synergy Horn, but I digress) so shifting the frequency band down to about 11-60 Hz. give true subwoofer performance and makes short bass horns (La Scala owners REJOICE) a reality for most of the musical information. This is the approach I'm taking, for better or worse. My new bass horn is designed for 55-600 Hz. performance and will cross at about 320 Hz. to the amazing K402/K1133 driver combo that came from a Regal theater/all Klipsch Pro setup. That would NOT be possible without a great subwoofer section to match, but it costs lots of cubic footage and dollars to achieve.

When I go to theaters, after having been spoiled by my twin DTS-10's, I am fully aware of the missing octave, (since all THX theater setups have a 4th order rolloff below about 25 Hz.) in the sub bass rich modern Blockbuster movies with monsters, explosions, and crashes. Hollywood sound men are taking full advantage of digital sound mastering in the sub sonic range because they can without any extra cost to them in the program material.

When I came to Indy for my second Pilgrimage, I got a chance to feel what a 3 Kilowatt amp could do on a very expenisve 18" driver with two 18" passives in a solid box in IndyKlipschFan's all-Klipsch home theater. Mike Hurd from Canada brought the sub and it was impressive. He also showed me the spectral output of music CD that clearly contained some 16 Hz. notes.

Subwoofers are not just for HT anymore, we need them for a lot of modern music that takes advantage of the modern proliferation of better bass than in the last millennium. Fact, not fiction.

Edited December 12, 2013 by ClaudeJ1

[bracurrie]

With old tube amps, it takes lots of "iron" to go down there. It's all about the output transformers. While there may be a significant rolloff because of this, I don't know because I have never needed to measure that aspect of amplifier performance. I do know that, regardless of coupling, Solid State amplifiers can get into the single digits with insignificant rolloff and the "standards" of measurement have never demanded it in the specs.

Claude, Thanks for the lengthy reply. Good stuff.

Would you do me the favor of making a recommendation. I am using a computer sound card to drive an active crossover bi amped setup that can easily go to tri or quad. I am using a tube amp for the high end and a new Audio by Van Alstine solid state for the low end. Assuming I go the pair of Danley DST-10 route for subs what amplification recommendation would you make to drive them.

Brad

[ClaudeJ1]

With old tube amps, it takes lots of "iron" to go down there. It's all about the output transformers. While there may be a significant rolloff because of this, I don't know because I have never needed to measure that aspect of amplifier performance. I do know that, regardless of coupling, Solid State amplifiers can get into the single digits with insignificant rolloff and the "standards" of measurement have never demanded it in the specs.

Claude, Thanks for the lengthy reply. Good stuff.

Would you do me the favor of making a recommendation. I am using a computer sound card to drive an active crossover bi amped setup that can easily go to tri or quad. I am using a tube amp for the high end and a new Audio by Van Alstine solid state for the low end. Assuming I go the pair of Danley DST-10 route for subs what amplification recommendation would you make to drive them.

Brad

Since I have my DTS-10's 4 ohm drivers wired in parallel, each cabinet represents about a 2 ohm load to the amp. Out of fear and paranoia, I WAS driving each cab with it's own Bryston 4B, using only one channel from each amp, thinking it would starve the power supply. Boy was I wrong. Now I'm using both channels of just one 4B to drive them and they never break a sweat, even with some of the most demanding Blue Ray soundtracks that shake the concrete and rattle everything in my house. Since the 4B has such high current capability via super low impedance, and HUGE transformers in it's overkill power supply, I no longer need two like I originally thought.

[ClaudeJ1]

Just listened to Sade's CD with "Paradise" on it. The whole CD is great and it's a good recording with lots of bass lines in it. You can definitely tell the different levels of bass and every note is there to follow precisely. Love them DTS-10's with my "cheap Scala" bottoms until I finish my own bass horns.

Edited December 31, 2013 by ClaudeJ1

[ClaudeJ1]

wow. 1,178 views and counting. More people who like bass as much as I do, it seems. This doesn't include the other link to this. WOW

Edited December 29, 2013 by ClaudeJ1