ClaudeJ1 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Hey, Mustang Guy. After reading Jason't comment about me preaching to the choir, I see you have twin THT's. Sahweet. How are you doing time delay? I have Audyssey XT32 in my Integra preamp. Oddly, it just adds distance to achieve the delay. It's somewhere around an extra 12-15' if I remember right. Works like a charm. BTW, I think on a THT it's around +11-12ms. I have just XT with no 32 and it does the same thing as yours. Mine about 13 ft. I tried manual override at both ends, 0 and 30 ft, but it loses bass intensity and cohesion on music. I do 2.1 from Oppo Sabre DAC's plus Audyssey via CD input on Onkyo 709), so it's 13 ft. selection sounds best on movies and music. But I have one in front and one in back of me and my sweet spot is a front/rear distance ratio of about 60/40% and music is way more critical of bass definition, so I guess Audyssey struck "the great compromise." I can actually turn off my subs and listen to music with less bass since my PEQ'd "cheap Scalas" are pretty flat to 50 Hz. Also I noticed that when they play classic tunes while rolling credits in a movie, there seems to be greater overall clarity than I can remember from the originals. I guess when you have big movie budgets, you can afford to get a hold of master tapes and transfer them to 48/96 Khz., uncompressed sampling on Blue Rays, eh? Maybe Hollywood can afford better mixing monitors? Edited January 14, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 A direct radiator sub placed in a corner will have a 90 x 90 polar pattern. Same would go for a woofer with proper placement.... and a fifteen would hold that to ~1kHz or so..... at which point it's easy to find a matching tweeter. I'm not sure polar response / timing is the source of the difference you're experiencing... I'm not either. I also know I am not alone. Others like the horn loaded sub with their horn loaded speakers. It sounds seamless, whereas reflex subs sound disjointed. My ears cannot explain it, but there is a definite reason! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Hey, Mustang Guy. After reading Jason't comment about me preaching to the choir, I see you have twin THT's. Sahweet. How are you doing time delay? I have Audyssey XT32 in my Integra preamp. Oddly, it just adds distance to achieve the delay. It's somewhere around an extra 12-15' if I remember right. Works like a charm. BTW, I think on a THT it's around +11-12ms. I have just XT with no 32 and it does the same thing as yours. Mine about 13 ft. I tried manual override at both ends, 0 and 30 ft, but it loses bass intensity and cohesion on music. I do 2.1 from Oppo Sabre DAC's plus Audyssey via CD input on Onkyo 709), so it's 13 ft. selection sounds best on movies and music. But I have one in front and one in back of me and my sweet spot is a front/rear distance ratio of about 60/40% and music is way more critical of bass definition, so I guess Audyssey struck "the great compromise." I can actually turn off my subs and listen to music with less bass since my PEQ'd "cheap Scalas" are pretty flat to 50 Hz. Also I noticed that when they play classic tunes while rolling credits in a movie, there seems to be greater overall clarity than I can remember from the originals. I guess when you have big movie budgets, you can afford to get a hold of master tapes and transfer them to 48/96 Khz., uncompressed sampling on Blue Rays, eh? Maybe Hollywood can afford better mixing monitors? For a couple weeks, I have had my entire shop surround system disconnected. I am listening to a single LaScala powered by a single 30watt tube amp fed by a mono tube tuner. I think it sounds great, and it definitely has no trouble filling my 50'X100'X24' shop with sound. In a few weeks I will hook the high end 6.2 LaScala/THT system back up, but for now, I am in the height of my glory. Edited January 15, 2014 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Yo, Mustang Guy. I used to use 2 LaScalas in a commercial DJ system playing Vinyl in the early 80's. I always used the mono switch on my mixer because Stereo imaging is not a requirement for making people dance. The music should be the same everywhere, just a different level by way of the inverse square law. So I'm smellin' what your'e cookin'!! Edited January 15, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 Yo, Mustang Guy. I used to use 2 LaScalas in a commercial DJ system playing Vinyl in the early 80's. I always used the mono switch on my mixer because Stereo imaging is not a requirement for making people dance. The music should be the same everywhere, just a different level by way of the inverse square law. So I'm smellin' what your'e cookin'!! Even when I have my bleeding edge super surround pre-pro Integra hooked up to 6 LaScalas, when I am playing music in the shop, I am playing in full mono mode. That way as I move around the shop, I am not hearing half of a stereo signal. It took me a while to figure that one out too. I was working on a car, and I was hearing the right signal of stereo all day. It was driving me nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeskizzle Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 And.........just when I was about to buy a couple more 18s, I read this thread and feel like I am doing a disservice to my LS by having a direct radiating sub. Maybe I should go for a Lilwrecker or even a Gjallerhorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 And.........just when I was about to buy a couple more 18s, I read this thread and feel like I am doing a disservice to my LS by having a direct radiating sub. Maybe I should go for a Lilwrecker or even a Gjallerhorn. You won't be disappointed if you go horn sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 If you ever get a chance to listen to 402's Don't ! I'm pretty sure you will want some! Oh darn. now you've gone and done it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 And.........just when I was about to buy a couple more 18s, I read this thread and feel like I am doing a disservice to my LS by having a direct radiating sub. Maybe I should go for a Lilwrecker or even a Gjallerhorn. The Othorn is the one you want....it's by far the best sounding subwoofer I've ever heard - and I'm not even hitting it with a potent amplifier yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnote Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 If you ever get a chance to listen to 402's Don't ! I'm pretty sure you will want some!Oh darn. now you've gone and done it ! You're telling me ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 And.........just when I was about to buy a couple more 18s, I read this thread and feel like I am doing a disservice to my LS by having a direct radiating sub. Maybe I should go for a Lilwrecker or even a Gjallerhorn. The Othorn is the one you want....it's by far the best sounding subwoofer I've ever heard - and I'm not even hitting it with a potent amplifier yet. That thing looks like a beast. Here's the Othorn design thread. The look and response looks a lot like the Danley TH118. If I were trying to match my LaScalas for music applications, that would be the one I would pick. For HT, something like the F20 or lilwrecker if I were going tapped horn. I'd like to trade my KPT-684's for a set of Othorns. DrWho, what driver are you running in the Othorn(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 And.........just when I was about to buy a couple more 18s, I read this thread and feel like I am doing a disservice to my LS by having a direct radiating sub. Maybe I should go for a Lilwrecker or even a Gjallerhorn. Either one of those would kick butt. However, you want at least two of whatever you build. There is also a Lowarhorn on the AVS forum that is a re-folded version of the Gjallerhorn with a much lower profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 And.........just when I was about to buy a couple more 18s, I read this thread and feel like I am doing a disservice to my LS by having a direct radiating sub. Maybe I should go for a Lilwrecker or even a Gjallerhorn. The Othorn is the one you want....it's by far the best sounding subwoofer I've ever heard - and I'm not even hitting it with a potent amplifier yet. Hey, Mike. what about the `15-30 Hz. range for HT? The Othorn has great output for PA, yes, but for HT, wouldn't you want to have that "sub sub" octave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 The recommended drivers for that Othorn sub are priced out of this world, you could buy 4 Eminence Lab 12 drivers for the same price as the cheapest recommended driver for that sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 The recommended drivers for that Othorn sub are priced out of this world, you could buy 4 Eminence Lab 12 drivers for the same price as the cheapest recommended driver for that sub. The lilwrecker can use some low cost $120 or so drivers. Alpine SWS-15D2 and D4 have been well tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 The recommended drivers for that Othorn sub are priced out of this world, you could buy 4 Eminence Lab 12 drivers for the same price as the cheapest recommended driver for that sub. The lilwrecker can use some low cost $120 or so drivers. Alpine SWS-15D2 and D4 have been well tested. That seems much more reasonable. I bought many Alpine head units for car audio in the past with good results, never used any of their drivers though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Here is the lilwrecker build thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1451519/lilmikes-lilwrecker Carl has many posts in that thread. Carl, have you built one of these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Here is the lilwrecker build thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1451519/lilmikes-lilwrecker Carl has many posts in that thread. Carl, have you built one of these? I may start one next month for another forum member. I'm waiting on his Ok at this point. I don't have any more room for any additional subs here at home LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 The microwrecker looks pretty good too. Smaller, and very capable for it's more compact size (4ft x 3ft x 2ft) compared to the lilwrecker (70" x 28-1/2" x 25-3/8"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I'm using the B&C 21SW152-4, which is $750....but I purchased mine used for something like $500, I forget. My interest in this cabinet was kindled by the insanely awesome measurements that Ricci published: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=81&mset=87 To be honest, I'm not interested in digging lower at the expense of "high frequency" performance...."high frequency" in this case being the 80Hz region, but this cab is solid all the way up to just under 300Hz. Covering an entire decade with a tapped horn is unheard of....I built the cabinet just to hear how the measurements correlated to the audible experience. Normally I don't like tapped horns. Another thing to note is that its distortion characteristic is nothing like a typical horn of any flavor; musical content below the Fc comes across in a very pleasing way even though it's not technically "accurate". For instance, the dubstep I played at a dance party in my basement a few weekends ago was just rocking everyone's senses - even with the 10Hz'ish content. It was literally like swimming underwater....and I only had a puny "1000 watt" bridged XTi 1000 powering it (which was probably closer to 800W in reality). When I build a second cabinet (to improve room mode behavior), I'm going to run new electrical and get a 4000W amplifier for each cabinet. Ironically, I typically listen at only ~65dB or so (which I'm doing while writing this). The thing I like about this sub is I can play something like Skrillex and just slam the crap out of people, but then without changing anything I can put in something like Blackmore's Night or Loreena McKennitt and everything sounds super natural - none of that over-exagerated bass with normal music. Everything is effortless. You don't get this sound from designs like the DTS-10, Lab12, THT, Lil Wrecker, or whatever the budget flavor of the week is....and that's not at all to downplay those designs (in case there's anyone out there enjoying them). The money put into the 21SW152-4 is entirely solid engineering. At the same time the Othorn horn design requires a driver of this caliber, and the benefits reaped far outweigh the steep cost of entry in my mind. Stacking multiple cheaper subs together doesn't get you to the same level of quality - even if you can get it go louder. It's the full gambit of quiet music to loud music that really differentiates this sub in my opinion. Anyways, that's just one guys opinion that is on this never-ending quest for the best possible sound. If it's out of your budget, then of course we need to start talking other designs.....and I can see those being extremely enjoyable - maybe even more enjoyable when you think about how much more music you could purchase with the money saved. Edited January 22, 2014 by DrWho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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