bracurrie Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Ok, I know how it is. Serious discussions are prefered. And I get that. But I have to share exciting news. I have the Little Ben amp from Justin Weber's ampsandsound.com on loan while I await his building of the Stereo 15 I have ordered. Its driving my HF Eliptrac 400 horns with Faital HF200 drivers and the results are stunning. Clarity yes, but imaging that puts Alison Krauss not only in the middle but forward. Miles Davis on Kind of Blue is also elevated in the image. Can't wait till I can root out some well recorded bluegrass and see what imaging magic will emerge. Little time to say more, but an attached photo is always fun. I don't remember who put me onto Justin but Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Clarity yes, but imaging that puts Alison Krauss not only in the middle but forward. Miles Davis on Kind of Blue is also elevated in the image. Hey Brad What amp did you replace with the current amp? You probably have already done this but did you account for any difference in input sensitivity vs output level between the amplifiers? The reason I ask is this type of variation between the amplifiers could also result in the effect your reporting. Please note my comments aren't to question the quality of either amplifier but to call attention to a variable that I've experienced myself and can be a bit tricky for people using bi-amping to get set properly for listening as well as when comparing amplifiers in active crossover/multi-amp systems. Accounting for this when I was doing comparisons between my Cary 2A3 SE, Cary 2A3i PP and First Watt F3 amps was essential for me to reach any valid conclusions about the amplifiers when in my system. By the way thanks for posting the picture, it always helps to get a better understanding of someone's unique system/room. miketn Edited January 22, 2014 by mikebse2a3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon string Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 NIce..... I know what you're saying, tubes will do that. Its a magical thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Brad, Im glad it got there safely! Like my packing :-). I choose 6L6s as they are my favs, but feel free to use KT88s or EL34s if you have access. Each will influence the amps presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Please speculate or predict how each would change the presentation. BTW am I expected to match the detail of the packing? It was a work of art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 What amp did you replace with the current amp? The Manley Labs GY50 Stereo 100 is sidelined with this change. I am having it reverted back to original spec as it was so noisy I had it modified per Manley instructions to increase feedback and changed the input tubes as I remember to basically lower the power and gain. It helped but only with an attenuator on the horns was I able to enjoy it. And yes I really did enjoy the amp. I tried to measure the level or output on the Manley and then after putting in the Little Ben adjusted gains to match, so assuming that the output levels to be the same after adjustment I would be comparing apples to apples so to speak. Let me take the time now to say that initial impressions were that the sound was thinner and brighter. I changed the crossover slopes from 12 db to 24 db and then to 6 db but settled again on 12 db. I turned off my 2500 Hz -8 db EQ and reduced the gain another 2 db to get it where it seems to better balanced with the bass bins. After only and hour or so of listening I was moved to start this thread. About halfway through writing the thread starter the shrill sounds at 2500 Hz caused me to turn that EQ of -8 db back on. Its very narrow and boy it really smooths things out like loud vibes, banjo and some guitar where I may have a room problem. I look forward to taking some measurements to more accurately balance bass and treble, I only trust my ears so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 6l6GCs are regarded for the mid range. KT88s are know for the control of the bottom end and solid mid range performance... more output too. Some find EL34s magic... Im not one of them. I do love the sound of a 6CA7 which is not really an EL34s. Little ben is optimized for 6l6s in my mind, though when I did listening parties for feedback and used EH 6CA7s they were adored as well. I didn't ship with an NOS US front end 6SL7 but I tend to believe that NOS front end tubes and new power is a great compromise when most can't afford NOS power tubes. My general rule is getting know what you got and more forward from there. (So, if asked, I really love 6L6s of any shape... EH, Solvtek and new Tungsol being my gotos or the EH 6CA7s. Id run any interchangeable and then so find a GE 6SL7 and melt into my listening chair for a good soak. (Hope you're a bit surprised how far a real 5 watts will take you). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yes you can rub that 5 watt surprise in, but after all I have read I kinda knew it was coming. Wish I had more time to soak though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Im glad you're enjoying. Hope your get the crossover working the way you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Im glad you're enjoying. Hope your get the crossover working the way you want. Its a journey not a destination. measurements get me close and I find myself adjust a db up or down from time to time to make up for the source materiel. BTW the Little Ben is very quiet. With attenuators I could hear my Manley from across the room. Now I have to have an ear almost at the mouth of the horn to hear any noise at all. Damn horns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) I use both measurements and as a final judgement listening tests to determine the correct gain compensation between different amplifiers that I'm using with my system. My prefered method is to start with measurements and listening in mono (using male and female vocals as well as 1/3 octave pink noise centered on 500Hz which is the acoustical crossover point of my system) to determine the best gain/level balance between LF and HF channels/drivers. I use the amplifier in question to drive both the LF and HF channels (ie:vertical bi-amp) since this eliminates any sensitivity/gain variables between different amplifiers for this first step. By using (amplifier input level adjustment if available) or (level adjustments available in the active crossover program settings) the correct differential level can be obtained between the LF and HF channels. I repeat this again for the next amplifier to confirm that everything measures and sounds correct. My next step is to install one amplifier on the left channel (again vertical bi-amping) and the other amplifier on the right channel (again vertical bi-amping) while again using both mono test signals and listening test (especially concentrating on vocals).This should expose any sensitivity/gain variation between amplifiers as what should be a well focused center image will be pulled toward the left or right channel having the amplifier with the higher input sensitivity/gain. By using (amplifier input level adjustment if available) or (level adjustments available in the active crossover program settings) the image should be able to be moved to a well focused central location between the loudspeakers. You now have the measured and audible level settings needed for the amplifiers to match properly when you istall the different amplifiers to drive the LF and HF channels in the final configuration as desired. Note: I am assuming the individual knows if his room's acoustics are causing any significant left channel vs right channel variations (leading to tonal colorations and image shifting) and has taken appropriate action to deal with it. If room acoustic issues are suspected the loudspeakers can temporarly be moved away from any walls and closer together for this step to be performed during the listening test. miketn Edited January 22, 2014 by mikebse2a3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Its a journey not a destination. measurements get me close and I find myself adjust a db up or down from time to time to make up for the source materiel. I know what your talking about here.. There is a much better solution if you have available PEQ settings in your active DSP and they are easy to activate/adjust you can create a very versatile set of tone controls that will add at times some significant improvement to less than ideal program tonal variations. I use this method with my EV-DC One and couldn't imagine not having this capability to improve the reproduction of music that I enjoy. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I have not had the pleasure to demo Little Ben as of yet, but I sure did like its Big Brother. It was also dead quiet. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 the great promise of blackness and tubes... is this a myth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 the great promise of blackness and tubes... is this a myth? Its a dark subject for sure. But if you mean can tubes be dead quiet then yes. Now I believe. Quiet below the noise floor is I believe how you term this. The Little Ben cannot be heard emitting anything from my 8 foot listening position when at idle. Its so black that the noise on my 1950s recordings are again a feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 My prefered method is to start with measurements and listening in mono (using male and female vocals as well as 1/3 octave pink noise centered on 500Hz which is the acoustical crossover point of my system) to determine the best gain/level balance between LF and HF channels. I use the amplifier in question to drive both the LF and HF channels (ie:vertical bi-amp) since this eliminates any sensitivity/gain variables between different amplifiers for this first step. I repeat this again for the next amplifier to confirm that everything measures and sounds correct. Thanks, It sounds logical except the first part. If you are using the same amp to drive both the LP and HF channels how do you account for the difference in sensitivity of the two drivers. I assume you mean balancing the LF and HF with the crossover controls as mentioned in your next paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 the great promise of blackness and tubes... is this a myth? Its a dark subject for sure. But if you mean can tubes be dead quiet then yes. Now I believe. Quiet below the noise floor is I believe how you term this. The Little Ben cannot be heard emitting anything from my 8 foot listening position when at idle. Its so black that the noise on my 1950s recordings are again a feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Thanks, It sounds logical except the first part. If you are using the same amp to drive both the LP and HF channels how do you account for the difference in sensitivity of the two drivers. I assume you mean balancing the LF and HF with the crossover controls as mentioned in your next paragraph. Yes, sorry for any confusion and I've edited the previous post. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Morbius Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 In the photo of your setup between the 2 jubes, it looks like a Scott amp - am I correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracurrie Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 In the photo of your setup between the 2 jubes, it looks like a Scott amp - am I correct? A 222c that I had refurbished and have used from time to time as an emergency stand in. I would entertain selling it to a good home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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