I heard a pair of Wilson Audio Sophia's yesterday...

[etc6849]

Thanks Coytee! I'll keep you in mind. I have to go to training in Chattanooga this year (not scheduled yet). It looks like a detour would only be 50 miles out of the way.

There is a guy opening up a showroom in Charlotte. I called him a while back and it's still not ready. His website was http://panaceaengineering.com/

EDIT: Irmo is a suburb/city near Columbia.

I don't recall where Irmo is but I'd speculate I might be the nearest pair to you (Knoxville, TN)

Edited March 9, 2014 by etc6849

[ClaudeJ1]

Thanks, you saved a bunch of typing. Seems there are a few posts like this today, another calling all other non-horns mickey mouse distortion boxes (joking of course).

My point was more about the $$$$$$$$$$$$ than the boxes. But I did go to B&H in New York. All they had was a wall full of 2-way boxes from affordable to ridiculous. Plus or minus a few subtleties, they all sounded about the same. None sounded like live music, no micro details, and distortion galore when turned up past 90 db.

I guess I'm just spoiled by having all horns for 40 years since my teens.

Edited March 9, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[001]

k-horns sealed correctly in concrete backed drywalled basement

13x23 room.

How high is your ceiling, if I might ask? Do you have the Khorns along the short wall or the long wall? Anything on the floor or ceiling? How about on top of the Khorns? Sometimes a picture is worth thousands of words.

If you haven't seen this before, perhaps some of this might be of some use to you in your audio journeys: Corner Horn Imaging FAQ

Chris

ceiling is on the low side, just under 8ft because of the acoustic panel drop style it is. well aware this is far from "ideal". mine are on the short wall for now & will stay there due to the layout of the room & the fact that i have a 2nd home theater system down there too. floor is fully carpeted with area rugs on top of that, fully furnished with couch & chairs. nothing on the top of the k-horns.

the k-horns were a spur of the moment decision on a local deal i couldnt pass up. they will follow me to my next house & hopefully be in a better room. just to clarify again, my comments arent really about "my" speakers, im refering to what many other people say about theirs, plenty of people feel the mids & highs can have "issues" this wasnt sour grapes or anything along those lines for my personal speakers. harshness aside, i love my k-horns & would be happy to let anyone hear them that likes the same music i listen to, mainly rock & roll, i promise they will leave feeling as if they just saw the band at full live volumes. its all good as far as im concerned. but i wouldnt compare my k-horns to a bookshelf speaker of any price. just not a valid comparison.

thanks for the link you provided, very much appreciated & good info there. my audiojjourney is & probably will always be a work in progress. thats part of the fun!

Edited March 9, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[ClaudeJ1]

& that observation is just as flawed... saying you cant compare a car to a truck is because they are apples to oranges,

Perhaps, but if you distill it as something with 4 wheels that get from point A to point B with a PERFORMANCE per DOLLAR criteria, you just have made Apples out of both.

It's all about the $$$ first, then whatever performance criteria you wish to assign.........whether it is bragging rights for the rich, or best sound for the budget for those of like mind.

[Max2]

k-horns sealed correctly in concrete backed drywalled basement

13x23 room.

How high is your ceiling, if I might ask? Do you have the Khorns along the short wall or the long wall? Anything on the floor or ceiling? How about on top of the Khorns? Sometimes a picture is worth thousands of words.

If you haven't seen this before, perhaps some of this might be of some use to you in your audio journeys: Corner Horn Imaging FAQ

Chris

ceiling is on the low side, just under 8ft because of the acoustic panel drop style it is. well aware this is far from "ideal". mine are on the short wall for now & will stay there due to the layout of the room & the fact that i have a 2nd home theater system down there too. floor is fully carpeted with area rugs on top of that, fully furnished with couch & chairs. nothing on the top of the k-horns.

the k-horns were a spur of the moment decision on a local deal i couldnt pass up. they will follow me to my next house & hopefully be in a better room. just to clarify again, my comments arent really about "my" speakers, im refering to what many other people say about theirs, plenty of people feel the mids & highs can have "issues" this wasnt sour grapes or anything along those lines for my personal speakers. harshness aside, i love my k-horns & would be happy to let anyone hear them that likes the same music i listen to, mainly rock & roll, i promise they will leave feeling as if they just saw the band at full live volumes. its all good as far as im concerned. but i wouldnt compare my k-horns to a bookshelf speaker of any price. just not a valid comparison.

thanks for the link you provided, very much appreciated & good info there. my audiojjourney is & probably will always be a work in progress. thats part of the fun!

Have you tried pulling them out of the corners enough to straighten them up a little? Of course the bass will fall off some, but the imaging should improve a lot. With the drivers roughly 10.5' apart tucked in the corners, your seating would have to be very close and I would guess very beamy and maybe even unpleasant. What X-overs are you running?

[garyrc]

• So called "high end" companies have needed to stir up quite a bit of courage to market horn loudspeakers, thanks to a widespread propoganda campaign against horns, starting in about 1970, and increasing over the next several decades. During that time, it was just about impossible to find "high end" direct radiators demonstrated in the same showroom as Klipschorns, La Scalas, or some good, fully or partly horn loaded JBLs, Altecs, Tannoys, or later, those of newer horn companies (was it Westlake?) etc. Many consumers, "golden eared" magazine reviewers, and some of the dealers themselves, simply believed the bad rap horns were getting. It might even be that some speaker designers believed it too, without much, or any, auditioning of horns, except in movie theaters and at rock concerts.

A British book on designing your own recording studio matter of factly cautioned readers to avoid horns, because they were "more highly distorted," than dome or cone tweeters, when, in fact, the opposite is often true.

A few years ago, Stereophile, a magazine that han been pretty anti-horn, reviewed La Scala II, saying it had "exceptionally smooth midrange and treble, and a spacious soundstage." They then pointed out that the high treble was a little "reticent," rather than too prominent. They called it "rich and warm," and "dynamic as all get out." They put it on their highly recommended list for speakers that don't go all the way down in the bass. The La Scala II Stereophile reviewed had thicker wood than the I, which some people thought improved the bass. Otherwise, it had the same midrange horn (K401), mid driver (K55X), and tweeter (K77F) as modern Klipschorns (except for those in which the front mounting tweeter flange is a permanent part of the otherwise identical tweeter -- the K77D --, rather than requiring a mounting bracket).

As to whether the "Golden Ear" or "High End" speakers actually have flatter frequency response (in what room?), there was a curve of a Wilson someone posted on the Klipsch forum a few years ago that was fairly peak and dippy, in other words, probably relatively honest.

If you futz around with your room enough (room treatments) and then use something like Audyssey, a curve can be made relatively flat. Of course, that's a good idea only if the system actually sounds better after you're done. With Audyssey, my Klipschorns sometimes measure about +/- 0.75 dB from about 800 to 7.5K at the main listening position. I say "sometimes" because any slight movement of the microphone can produce different results. With Audyssey they are still flat at 30 Hz with a hump at 45 Hz (and extend down to 24 Hz, with massive attenuation). On the high end, I use the Audyssey cinema roll off, and they are about 5 dB down at 15 K.

I highly recommend Chris's Corner Horn Imaging FAQ We also added some diffusers.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Garyrc

[etc6849]

Interestingly, I use the Audyssey flat setting as I like having more treble. I didn't do any research on this, but just found it sounded better to me. The Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 version is awesome in my opinion. It provides two subwoofer outputs and individually calibrates the subs to work best with one another. There's a night and day difference in my room as bass sounds much more realistic thanks to XT32.

Thanks I'll check out the FAQ you mention too.

PS: I can't imagine the uproar when the stereophile article came out. Must have been fun to read online.

• On the high end, I use the Audyssey cinema roll off, and they are about 5 dB down at 15 K.
• I highly recommend Chris's Corner Horn Imaging FAQ We also added some diffusers.

Edited March 10, 2014 by etc6849

[Chris A]

Have you tried pulling them out of the corners enough to straighten them up a little? Of course the bass will fall off some, but the imaging should improve a lot.

This is the understatement of the day, I think.

I would recommend sound absorption panels within 3 feet of the Khorn top hats on the front and side walls instead. Also anything between the speakers within about 5 feet will detract from the imaging - so sound absorption on the side of racks and cabinets will help.

Chris

Edited March 10, 2014 by Chris A

[001]

Have you tried pulling them out of the corners enough to straighten them up a little? Of course the bass will fall off some, but the imaging should improve a lot. With the drivers roughly 10.5' apart tucked in the corners, your seating would have to be very close and I would guess very beamy and maybe even unpleasant. What X-overs are you running?

no i havent tried pulling them out, everyone insisted they had to be as tight in the corners as possible & sealed with pipe foam. which i did & it did improve the bass, which i like as much basss as possible. so pulling them out may not be thebest idea for my small room. as you said, too close may exagerate the unpleasantness i get at high volumes. dont get me wrong at low to nid volumes the k-horns are very nice, no problems, but i like it LOUD. so with the small room i think i will look into some sound absorbtion panels like was recently suggested. the x-overs are stock ak-3's, mid horn is the 401. the speakers are just approaching 20 years old so i dont think there is anything wrong with them. my fortes are 1989 or 90 series & sound excellent, so im not fullly convinced on the whole 20 years & caps need replaced thing. i just keep the volume levels in check for the small room & will wait for a bigger room with vaulted ceilings etc.

[Max2]

Have you tried pulling them out of the corners enough to straighten them up a little? Of course the bass will fall off some, but the imaging should improve a lot. With the drivers roughly 10.5' apart tucked in the corners, your seating would have to be very close and I would guess very beamy and maybe even unpleasant. What X-overs are you running?

no i havent tried pulling them out, everyone insisted they had to be as tight in the corners as possible & sealed with pipe foam. which i did & it did improve the bass, which i like as much basss as possible. so pulling them out may not be thebest idea for my small room. as you said, too close may exagerate the unpleasantness i get at high volumes. dont get me wrong at low to nid volumes the k-horns are very nice, no problems, but i like it LOUD. so with the small room i think i will look into some sound absorbtion panels like was recently suggested. the x-overs are stock ak-3's, mid horn is the 401. the speakers are just approaching 20 years old so i dont think there is anything wrong with them. my fortes are 1989 or 90 series & sound excellent, so im not fullly convinced on the whole 20 years & caps need replaced thing. i just keep the volume levels in check for the small room & will wait for a bigger room with vaulted ceilings etc.

Pull them out of the corners and open them up more. Point them directly to the distance of your exact center seating position. Don't worry about the bass. I have mine 10 inches from my back wall and they are toed out quite a bit to suit my 12 foot listening distance. Its going to make a huge difference for you. Heck, I don't even run my sub with music and rarely did when my La Scalas were my front mains. The rolloff at 80hz or lower whether running LS's or K's is way, way over cried about IMO.

[001]

will give that a try, but i know i dont want to lose any of the bass responce. each person likes different things, for one member here that just got a new to him set of k-horns (cal i think), his first post said "wheres the bass?" his were pretty tight into the corners too. he was comparing them to cornwalls but still, it just supports what i was saying earlier in this thread... the k-horns & la scalllas have very over-overwhelming mids & the bass can seem to be lacking because of it. i had to seal mine in the corners & increase the bass knob some on my preamp to get to the balance of bass & mid that i like. im still considering a sub to compliment the k-horns.

but i will try to toe them out a bit to improve imaging & see what happens to the bass. might also look into what was suggested for the member i mentioned, dropping the mids a few db's to tone them down a bit but i think thats a little more difficult with my ak-3 x-overs. will post a new thread for that subject.

thanks again

Edited March 10, 2014 by klipschfancf4

[Chris A]

Pull them out of the corners and open them up more. Point them directly to the distance of your exact center seating position. Don't worry about the bass. I have mine 10 inches from my back wall and they are toed out quite a bit to suit my 12 foot listening distance. Its going to make a huge difference for you. Heck, I don't even run my sub with music and rarely did when my La Scalas were my front mains. The rolloff at 80hz or lower whether running LS's or K's is way, way over cried about IMO.

Could you post a picture of your setup, Max2?

[Max2]

Pull them out of the corners and open them up more. Point them directly to the distance of your exact center seating position. Don't worry about the bass. I have mine 10 inches from my back wall and they are toed out quite a bit to suit my 12 foot listening distance. Its going to make a huge difference for you. Heck, I don't even run my sub with music and rarely did when my La Scalas were my front mains. The rolloff at 80hz or lower whether running LS's or K's is way, way over cried about IMO.

Could you post a picture of your setup, Max2?

Sure thing. You just want speaker placement?

[Chris A]

Pull them out of the corners and open them up more. Point them directly to the distance of your exact center seating position. Don't worry about the bass. I have mine 10 inches from my back wall and they are toed out quite a bit to suit my 12 foot listening distance. Its going to make a huge difference for you. Heck, I don't even run my sub with music and rarely did when my La Scalas were my front mains. The rolloff at 80hz or lower whether running LS's or K's is way, way over cried about IMO.

Could you post a picture of your setup, Max2?

Sure thing. You just want speaker placement?

Left and right walls and as much of the room as you can - including ceiling.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Chris A

[PrestonTom]

Pulling a K-Horn out of the corner, even just a few inches, is a bad idea. Yes, it will change the sound, but it will not be an improvement.

If you are having a problem with imaging, it is possible to keep the bass bins tucked in the corner and re-angle the top section. However, that requires some effort and it is probably best to try the room treatment options first (I think Chris had an excellent thread on this issue).

[Max2]

Pull them out of the corners and open them up more. Point them directly to the distance of your exact center seating position. Don't worry about the bass. I have mine 10 inches from my back wall and they are toed out quite a bit to suit my 12 foot listening distance. Its going to make a huge difference for you. Heck, I don't even run my sub with music and rarely did when my La Scalas were my front mains. The rolloff at 80hz or lower whether running LS's or K's is way, way over cried about IMO.

Could you post a picture of your setup, Max2?

Sure thing. You just want speaker placement?

Left and right walls and as much of the room as you can - including ceiling.

I got a few pics in and my camera battery died. I did manage to get one of how far mine are out of the corners. The dove tail ceiling is just a little too low to pull off a corner placement. The room is far from ideal from all the furniture and clutter alone.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Max2

[Max2]

Pulling a K-Horn out of the corner, even just a few inches, is a bad idea. Yes, it will change the sound, but it will not be an improvement.

If you are having a problem with imaging, it is possible to keep the bass bins tucked in the corner and re-angle the top section. However, that requires some effort and it is probably best to try the room treatment options first (I think Chris had an excellent thread on this issue).

will give that a try, but i know i dont want to lose any of the bass responce. each person likes different things, for one member here that just got a new to him set of k-horns (cal i think), his first post said "wheres the bass?" his were pretty tight into the corners too. he was comparing them to cornwalls but still, it just supports what i was saying earlier in this thread... the k-horns & la scalllas have very over-overwhelming mids & the bass can seem to be lacking because of it. i had to seal mine in the corners & increase the bass knob some on my preamp to get to the balance of bass & mid that i like. im still considering a sub to compliment the k-horns.

but i will try to toe them out a bit to improve imaging & see what happens to the bass. might also look into what was suggested for the member i mentioned, dropping the mids a few db's to tone them down a bit but i think thats a little more difficult with my ak-3 x-overs. will post a new thread for that subject.

thanks again

It sounds like you need a sub unless you go a Cornscala route or a modded Cornwall with a big mid. Your room is narrow enough that the K's are almost pointing at each other. You're going to have to toe them out to get a decent image. The sound is intersecting at a very close distance to your front wall...probably around 6-7 feet due to their closeness, which is twice as close as any should be listened at IMO. Toe them out and move your listening spot back to a 12 foot or further position, but you have to point them accurately towards that listening position at what ever distance you choose. (Break out the tape measure) This isn't a fix for a perfect setup by far, but the imaging would be much more important to me than to worry about the bass to drop some.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Max2

[Islander]

Looks like you need to build false corners for your Khorns. Then they'll be corner independent, like TSCMs.

Actual TSCMs look pretty industrial: http://itishifi.blogspot.ca/2012/08/klipsch-tscm.html

Heritage Series owners manuals usually contain the plans to make false corners, in case they're needed.

[garyrc]

Pulling a K-Horn out of the corner, even just a few inches, is a bad idea. Yes, it will change the sound, but it will not be an improvement.

If you are having a problem with imaging, it is possible to keep the bass bins tucked in the corner and re-angle the top section. However, that requires some effort and it is probably best to try the room treatment options first (I think Chris had an excellent thread on this issue).

will give that a try, but i know i dont want to lose any of the bass responce. each person likes different things, for one member here that just got a new to him set of k-horns (cal i think), his first post said "wheres the bass?" his were pretty tight into the corners too. he was comparing them to cornwalls but still, it just supports what i was saying earlier in this thread... the k-horns & la scalllas have very over-overwhelming mids & the bass can seem to be lacking because of it. i had to seal mine in the corners & increase the bass knob some on my preamp to get to the balance of bass & mid that i like. im still considering a sub to compliment the k-horns.

but i will try to toe them out a bit to improve imaging & see what happens to the bass. might also look into what was suggested for the member i mentioned, dropping the mids a few db's to tone them down a bit but i think thats a little more difficult with my ak-3 x-overs. will post a new thread for that subject.

thanks again

Toe them out and move your listening spot back to a 12 foot or further position, but you have to point them accurately towards that listening position at what ever distance you choose. (Break out the tape measure) This isn't a fix for a perfect setup by far, but the imaging would be much more important to me than to worry about the bass to drop some.

Just to demonstrate once again how different people's priorities can be, imaging would be much less important to me than bass response!

To solve the problem of weak bass, I would 1) fit the K-horns tightly into either artificial corners that are slightly out from the wall, or the room corners if they can be made to fit. If artificial corners are used, I'd build them out of studs that are less than 16" O.C., with 3/4 plywood screwed and glued to each side, with the side that shows with a hardwood veneer and stained. 2) Feel free to turn up a bass control, if there is one. 3) Use Audyssey, and possibly Audyssey's Dynamic EQ, unless the music is played so loudly that the DEQ would be flat.

Warning: In 1980, my wife and I set about the making of artificial corners, and we thought, "maybe we should make them a little bigger ... " They morphed into an entire room floating within a room. When we moved into our new house in 2004, we skipped the artificial corner step, and went right to building the room, with especially rigid and square corners. The bass was great in both rooms.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Garyrc

[Max2]

Pulling a K-Horn out of the corner, even just a few inches, is a bad idea. Yes, it will change the sound, but it will not be an improvement.

If you are having a problem with imaging, it is possible to keep the bass bins tucked in the corner and re-angle the top section. However, that requires some effort and it is probably best to try the room treatment options first (I think Chris had an excellent thread on this issue).

will give that a try, but i know i dont want to lose any of the bass responce. each person likes different things, for one member here that just got a new to him set of k-horns (cal i think), his first post said "wheres the bass?" his were pretty tight into the corners too. he was comparing them to cornwalls but still, it just supports what i was saying earlier in this thread... the k-horns & la scalllas have very over-overwhelming mids & the bass can seem to be lacking because of it. i had to seal mine in the corners & increase the bass knob some on my preamp to get to the balance of bass & mid that i like. im still considering a sub to compliment the k-horns.

but i will try to toe them out a bit to improve imaging & see what happens to the bass. might also look into what was suggested for the member i mentioned, dropping the mids a few db's to tone them down a bit but i think thats a little more difficult with my ak-3 x-overs. will post a new thread for that subject.

thanks again

Toe them out and move your listening spot back to a 12 foot or further position, but you have to point them accurately towards that listening position at what ever distance you choose. (Break out the tape measure) This isn't a fix for a perfect setup by far, but the imaging would be much more important to me than to worry about the bass to drop some.

Just to demonstrate once again how different people's priorities can be, imaging would be much less important to me than bass response!

To solve the problem of weak bass, I would 1) fit the K-horns tightly into either artificial corners that are slightly out from the wall, or the room corners if they can be made to fit. If artificial corners are used, I'd build them out of studs that are less than 16" O.C., with 3/4 plywood screwed and glued to each side, with the side that shows with a hardwood veneer and stained. 2) Feel free to turn up a bass control, if there is one. 3) Use Audyssey, and possibly Audyssey's Dynamic EQ, unless the music is played so loudly that the DEQ would be flat.

Warning: In 1980, my wife and I set about the making of artificial corners, and we thought, "maybe we should make them a little bigger ... " They morphed into an entire room floating within a room. When we moved into our new house in 2004, we skipped the artificial corner step, and went right to building the room, with especially rigid and square corners. The bass was great in both rooms.

I think if your K's were at a 45 degree angle in corners in a room that was a mere 13' foot wide, you might think different . False corners would be the best out and I believe PWK actually used some in one of his homes that lacked usable corners . But like you said, different ears and different priorities. The obvious problem is the K's don't have adjustability with placement like a LaScala, Belle or Cornwall and once again, there is give and take with everything out there. It seems there is a stigma that follows each models of the Heritage line. The La Scala needs a sub to be totally complete. The K's need perfect corners and need a 20 foot width wall. The Cornwall's have the big Bass, but lack the big mid that many people miss after getting a taste of the K55 driver and the big 400 or 401 mid..... and on top of that the Cornwalls are beat up from the number crunchers for not having a low distortion horn loaded bass enclosure.

Boy, we all have a big burden to carry

Edited March 11, 2014 by Max2