jcmusic Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Here is a pic of my Khorns impulse response showing the woofers, mids, and tweeters. As you can see the tweeter/mids are almost perfect but, the woofers are 4.1ms behind not bad in my opinion for a passive setup. Edited August 31, 2014 by canyonman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 how is this measured? at the input or post driver? curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Schu, This is measured at the listening position, all drivers seperately. Edited August 31, 2014 by canyonman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Thank you for posting this. Very interesting because this data suggests that time-aligning the K-Horn (or La Scala in my case) might be best served by delaying the entire top end instead of just the tweeter....which happens to be inline with how the AL-3 network is factory wired to be divided for bi-amping. Just a matter of cutting two wires. Just so happens my receiver can actually accommodate this scenario quite easily (bi-amp with a few ms of delay). I'll have to check this feature out. ....which means digging out the sound card, mic, laptop again... <cracking knuckles> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 Thank you for posting this. Very interesting because this data suggests that time-aligning the K-Horn (or La Scala in my case) might be best served by delaying the entire top end instead of just the tweeter....which happens to be inline with how the AL-3 network is factory wired to be divided for bi-amping. Just a matter of cutting two wires. Just so happens my receiver can actually accommodate this scenario quite easily (bi-amp with a few ms of delay). I'll have to check this feature out. ....which means digging out the sound card, mic, laptop again... <cracking knuckles> Think of it this way once you've done it your through!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul79 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 These stock Khorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Hi Paul, No they are not stock, these have the Volti Audio 2" horns and BMS 4592-mid drivers with Fostex tweeters and custom xovers. The only thing stock is the 15" woofer and the cabinets and they have the backs closed in as well!!! Edited August 31, 2014 by canyonman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 No they are not stock.... Well, scratch that idea then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 No they are not stock.... Well, scratch that idea then. Still not a bad idea. It's more noticeable between the mid and tweeter, but getting them all lined up is certainly the best. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodomo Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I have the same setup, I also plan on getting fostex tweeters. Which ones do you have? I plan on getting t500amkII. With Gregs horns, your tweeters move to the side. I took them out and put them on top aligned with the mid driver vertically and horizontally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) I have the 90A's and they are on top of the Khorns aligned vertically, in the middle. I am not sure if it makes alot of difference if they are aligned horizonally??? Edited September 1, 2014 by canyonman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 No they are not stock.... Well, scratch that idea then. What idea? The concept is still the same doesn't matter which horns and drivers you have!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodomo Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) Well, we tried them on both sides and on top. We definitely preferred (with blind tests) them on top. I cant say I have incredible hearing, but we can hear the difference moving them back and forth on top as well. They sounded the best and most cohesive on top and drivers aligned. What is easiest to hear for us were the wind instruments, especially trumpets. They sounded most realistic with this setup. We are two friends living together. We are musicians (guitarist and drummer, keys) and good music listeners (mostly jazz and blues, but also electronic and rock). I can also hear the effect of the acoustic absorbing panel (sideways bass trap) and it is very positive. Although its a bass trap, it somehow really helps out with the upper frequencies clarity. I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters? Edited September 1, 2014 by kodomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 ...I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters? https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/151762-timing-measurements/?p=1766971 I'd recommend using better converters by using higher quality active crossover units. There are preowned units available on ebay and craigslist that are very competitive in price. For instance, I picked this one up used for $325 locally on craigslist: http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/processors/sp2060/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 ... I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters? Not many here believe that there are any real audible difference between opamps, resistors, capacitors, etc. I would consider a modified Behringer unit - there are a couple places online that look like they do nice work with them. When you change the physical space that a driver occupies - more changes than the time issue. At any rate, if you move the tweeter to the top and move it back, be sure to cover the surface and walls with a non-reflective material - I like felt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 What idea? The concept is still the same doesn't matter which horns and drivers you have!!! Not exactly. I initially thought the impulse data was for the stock speakers. If that was the case, then the chart would be indicative for a La Scala also, and all that would need to be accomplished is to divide the AL-3 network at the factory bi-amp jumpers (between the top end and the bass bin) and dial-in a proportional amount of delay. A relatively easy experiment to carry out on my end. In light of the news, I can't use the data. There's other hardware out there that can time-align the top end (between the tweeter and the squawker) without breaking into the filter network. I'll have to wait some time to acquire it though. When you change the physical space that a driver occupies - more changes than the time issue. Excellent point . Basically why I'm in no hurry to experiment with separate horn/driver assemblies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodomo Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) When you change the physical space that a driver occupies - more changes than the time issue. At any rate, if you move the tweeter to the top and move it back, be sure to cover the surface and walls with a non-reflective material - I like felt. That is why I have the acoustic panel around the tweeter and where the reflections may occur. Is there a way to time align bass section with passive networks. I do not want to break the analog chain with ad/da converters. Having ad/da converters as high quality as my analog chain would bankrupt me. Chris A, at the first link you provided, I couldnt figure out that diagram. I have been looking into all pass networks, is it similar? I have in my music studio apogee and motu converters. I also have a oppo 105d and it's got good converters in it, actually more precise and clean than my motus. I had the chance to hear mytek converters, prism orpheus converters etc. Lots of studio quality stuff. After hearing these, it is easier to identify lower quality converters. Sometimes I wish I didnt hear them... Edited September 2, 2014 by kodomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) Is there a way to time align bass section with passive networks. I do not want to break the analog chain with ad/da converters. Having ad/da converters as high quality as my analog chain would bankrupt me. Chris A, at the first link you provided, I couldnt figure out that diagram. I have been looking into all pass networks, is it similar? I can't help you with anti-digital bias: note that I don't hear any artifacts of good active digital crossovers, but I can hear the effects of not using them with loudspeakers needing time alignment of horns/drivers. You might try PMing djk on his all-pass filter experience for direct radiating loudspeaker bass bins, but he was pretty clear that it doesn't work for the application that you seek: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/151762-timing-measurements/?p=1767350 Edited September 2, 2014 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Well, we tried them on both sides and on top. We definitely preferred (with blind tests) them on top. I cant say I have incredible hearing, but we can hear the difference moving them back and forth on top as well. They sounded the best and most cohesive on top and drivers aligned. What is easiest to hear for us were the wind instruments, especially trumpets. They sounded most realistic with this setup. We are two friends living together. We are musicians (guitarist and drummer, keys) and good music listeners (mostly jazz and blues, but also electronic and rock). I can also hear the effect of the acoustic absorbing panel (sideways bass trap) and it is very positive. Although its a bass trap, it somehow really helps out with the upper frequencies clarity. I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters? So here you are saying that having the mids and tweeters aligned vertically as well as time aligned made a difference to your ears? Meaning I have my tweeters pushed back on the tops but, they are not exactly over the mid driver just the same distance back. Mine are in the center on top of the cabinet not off to the side like yours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodomo Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 I am not biased against digital at all. I listen to cd, sacd and like dsd and also make my own recordings in digital domain. However my analog chain sounds better than my digital chain. So unless the converters which I will put in between doesnt degrade anything I dont want to put them in. I dont want to fix some problems and introduce others. Well, we tried them on both sides and on top. We definitely preferred (with blind tests) them on top. I cant say I have incredible hearing, but we can hear the difference moving them back and forth on top as well. They sounded the best and most cohesive on top and drivers aligned. What is easiest to hear for us were the wind instruments, especially trumpets. They sounded most realistic with this setup. We are two friends living together. We are musicians (guitarist and drummer, keys) and good music listeners (mostly jazz and blues, but also electronic and rock). I can also hear the effect of the acoustic absorbing panel (sideways bass trap) and it is very positive. Although its a bass trap, it somehow really helps out with the upper frequencies clarity. I really want to align the bass section too. However I don't want to put dsp's in the chain. I don't like the converter quality in the ones I tried like minidsp. I have good converters in my music studio and we can hear a lot of difference between good and bad converters. I am looking for a way to do it passively. It is physically not possible to move the bass section. We need a passive crossover design that somehow makes up for this delay... or any other suggestions without converters? So here you are saying that having the mids and tweeters aligned vertically as well as time aligned made a difference to your ears? Meaning I have my tweeters pushed back on the tops but, they are not exactly over the mid driver just the same distance back. Mine are in the center on top of the cabinet not off to the side like yours... Yes, but the actual difference came from pushing them back. Centring them on top or aligning the drivers exactly doesn't make that much of a difference, as it is just a few centimeters. However, when they were completely to the side, they sound different to my ears. It is very easy to hear, put them completely outwards, have a listen, them move them completely inwards and have a listen. The soundstage changes a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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