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Lemon string

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Thanks for making the trek guys, it was a good time for sure. Jim, jason and Beeker you were all missed. We'll do it again in april it sounds like. 

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These are the recommended tubes:   2-1614 output, 2-12AX7, 12AU7, 12BH7, 5U4

 

It looks like the MC-30s have the recommended tubes, except for the 1614, they have Sovtek 5881/6L6WGC tube which I appears to be an acceptable substitute,  However, not all 6L6 tubes are rated the same, I read that the 6L6WGB tubes are not a good choice (related to plate voltage, I am not an expert).

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We had some discussion on Cornscallas, on the AK forum there are no shortage of threads on this topic with lots of builds.

 

This link has links to lots of projects including back in the Klipsch Forum

 

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=284353

 

Version  C build

 

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=577522

 

This is just one of them, note the massive mid driver.

 

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=381148

 

CSProject2.jpg

 

 

 

CSProject4.jpg

Edited by Bubo
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Saturdays gtg has given me a few thoughts for the next one...... 

 

Thinking we should have a couple of featured recordings that we start with and play on each of the system configurations that are present. Perhaps next time we have a vote in advance on what those featured recordings will be. Or perhaps each of us selects one track that we deem as a reference track and we listen to each of those tracks on each system before setting up the next system and then repeat. 

 

I also think it would be good if we made note of what all gets listened to and share that list here with the forum along with impressions, other members not able to attend might enjoy that. Along with the track listing we could supply notes on how the recordings presentation differed with the different set ups.

 

Just some thoughts....

 

See where it leads for the april session. Im thinking as a tentative date the first weekend in April. Maybe if we get a date nailed down well in advance we can get a few more members out. That being said, the next gtg we'll switch up venue to downtown Chicago it might be a bit more of a central location that makes it easier for others to join.  

 

Lets see where it goes. I have to think there are more forum members in the Chicagoland area that will join. It'd be cool to meet a few more Klipsch heads and hear what gear their using to blow their horns.

 

Stayed tuned 

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The second weekend in April is the Hope Pilgrimage.

If someone is planning to go, we should do a Boxx tribute and send some well wishes to his family that will be there.

 

We did listen to some Pink Floyd Saturday, I think Boxx would have approved.

 

For the next meeting, we can have people list the gear (speakers and electronics) they are willing to haul there and have people make "requests."

 

Fitting competitions for future gatherings would be:

Forte vs. Forte II, Chorus II vs. Cornwalls, Cornscala vs. La scala, Belle vs. La Scala. (K-horns are a bit harder to move/place in a room).

KLF-30s vs. Cornwalls, RF-7 vs. RF-83, etc.  

 

Maybe I will have the McIntosh MC-240 running then too.  I will have played with the Ultra II subs by then as well.

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Posting a list of high resolution tracks would be great.  Also, comparing systems, we should level match the speakers for a more meaningful comparison.  I really liked that female vocalist on the track Brandon played.  Hauling the really big speaker may be a bit difficult for some people. 

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Thinking we should have a couple of featured recordings that we start with and play on each of the system configurations that are present.

 

each of us selects one track that we deem as a reference track and we listen to each of those tracks on each system before setting up the next system and then repeat. 

 

Along with the track listing we could supply notes on how the recordings presentation differed with the different set ups.

 

 

Agree

 

We may want to consider how many variables we want to manage?

 

For example, if want to evaluate amps and speakers....... should we to the best of our ability zero out: noise, hum, wow and flutter, sympathetic resonance, quantization error, loudness wars, phase jitter and clocking issues...all are manageable technical and mastering issues. GIGO

 

Since its unlikely we are going to perform a bench stress test on the amps and speakers, we will be registering "observed behavior" and relative impressions. Do we use criteria like: Life-like, non-fatiguing, and transparent? Do we assign simple letter grades like A B C?? for relative impression-ranking?

 

For example: when we sampled the yaquin integrated amp, it would be nearly impossible for me to ascribe any relative impressions or ranking given the number of variables: Vinyl, TT, needle MC, MC pre amp, stand alone attenuator, Yaquin and Cornwalls. Plus any analog cabling issues which may or may not exist.

 

When we sampled the the MC-30s the path for the analog signal was directly out of the Surround amp and into the MC-30s feeding the Fortes. Within reason, managing the analog signal comes down to nice thick RCA cables with gold ends, and 10 GA speaker cables to minimize damping issues an area where tubes are at a disadvantage vs solid state.  In the digital media, there is no shortage of bad recordings, worse mastering and the use of the inferior PCM encoding scheme. DSP tech may have reached a threshold where any quality modern DAC converter is indistinguishable from other quality units.

 

Quality surround Receivers may have eclipsed the need for DACs and 2 channel pre-amps?

 

Of the digital formats, DTS Master (best) and it's Dolby equivalent offer the best technical performance of any media or encoding scheme on the consumer market. Surround receivers can downmix the 5.1 stream to 2.0 or 2.1 yielding the best SN and highest resolution. Plus, if you see the guy picking his banjo on the screen, and nothing on the speakers its a good indication something went wrong in the production or mastering process. DTS Master has become the defacto standard for BluRay movies, why .....it sounds better.

 

To observe:

life-like, I think we need acoustic

non fatiguing, after playing a few tracks continuously, you know if it's irritating you

transparent, if the analog signal has a low SN, you know if everything is clear

 

For the next meeting, we can have people list the gear (speakers and electronics) they are willing to haul there and have people make "requests."

 

Agree, do we limit ourselves to what we think the A products are?

 

To my ears, the MC 30 were billed as rock stars, if Mac has a better tube sounding amp I would like to hear it in a bake off.

 

Posting a list of high resolution tracks would be great.  Also, comparing systems, we should level match the speakers for a more meaningful comparison.  I really liked that female vocalist on the track Brandon played.  Hauling the really big speaker may be a bit difficult for some people. 

 

Leveling the field with a $50 db Meter is a great idea since the brain always thinks Louder is Better; psycho acoustics...... the seed of the digital loudness wars and the Vinyl revival

 

Some things to consider.....

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Just a thought.

 

If we decide on our own "reference system" of all A components and A recordings.......... do we bench against it, better or worse than?

 

For example; if the MC-30 becomes our Tube amp champion aka reference point, do we invite other Mac Tube Owners for a cage fight?? Everything stays the same, and the amps slug it out our A vs. their B??

 

There is no shortage of Mac owners on the AK and Audio Aficianato Forums living in the area, I have no doubt some would pick up the gloves for some fun.

 

IMHO any of the High End Heritage speakers would be acceptable to most tube owners as a reference speaker.

 

2009666-rocky_iv_original_k.jpg

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Sounds to me like we should all throw in a few grand each, buy a beach house on the lake, fill it up with gear from the Opus Klipsch Storage Facility, and then have a quarterly blow out.  On the off weeks, we could rent it out.  Just a thought.

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Sounds to me like we should all throw in a few grand each, buy a beach house on the lake, fill it up with gear from the Opus Klipsch Storage Facility, and then have a quarterly blow out.  On the off weeks, we could rent it out.  Just a thought.

 

Or we finish my basement and turn it into a listening or recording studio.  Any musicians in the group?

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I'm a drummer, and have a full set of conga's, tumbadora, bongos.  They don't get nearly enough play......

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Let's just keep it simple, for example amp 1 plays music A and then amp 2 plays music A.  The amps are the only thing we change.  We can do this also with speakers only changing one variable at a time.  If it is just us Klipsch guys we state our observations.  This way we can get I deals on equipment that someone may want to purchase. 

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Agree We may want to consider how many variables we want to manage? For example, if want to evaluate amps and speakers....... should we to the best of our ability zero out: noise, hum, wow and flutter, sympathetic resonance, quantization error, loudness wars, phase jitter and clocking issues...all are manageable technical and mastering issues. GIGO Since its unlikely we are going to perform a bench stress test on the amps and speakers, we will be registering "observed behavior" and relative impressions. Do we use criteria like: Life-like, non-fatiguing, and transparent? Do we assign simple letter grades like A B C?? for relative impression-ranking?

 

We will need to limit the A/B arena to a comparison (or a few) per meeting.  Otherwise, we will listen to the same 2-4 tracks on various gear all day.

 

I think the introduce a song/artist (or my favorite track), is a great part of the meeting.

 

If we really want to compare the speakers/electronics.  We will need to throw some technology at the problem.  Sampling the direct audio signal and comparing it to a microphone sampling from the speaker output (room placement issues understood).

Comparing the signal at the same distance from each speaker.  We can do a power/decibel meter to set the volume level for various supplies/speakers.  The frequency spectra will tell us the lower end roll off and "reproduction ability".

This can be tedious if done correctly and may remove the "magic" for some that just want to hang for music sampling and conversation.

 

For electronics, the test can compare the amplifier output (across a resistor) to the signal input.  The Sansui or Marantz or Pioneer... sound or flavoring of the music occurs in the receiver and shines or doesn't depending on the speaker used.  The signature of the electronics can be observed.  For vintage electronics, the same model might differ greatly unless both have been calibrated and recapped.

 

The same model speakers can vary a lot based on the crossovers/upgrades as well.

 

We may end up needing to do a hardcore equipment analysis meeting occasionally versus a musical enjoyment meeting.

 

Only an example, I like vintage Sansui and Yamaha power amps, jimjimbo likes vintage Pioneer gear.  We can pick the matchup see which people prefer.

 

A couple different speakers a couple different amps and food, conversation and an audio sampling worked well for an enjoyable meeting.

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Sounds to me like we should all throw in a few grand each, buy a beach house on the lake, fill it up with gear from the Opus Klipsch Storage Facility, and then have a quarterly blow out.  On the off weeks, we could rent it out.  Just a thought.

 

Or we finish my basement and turn it into a listening or recording studio.  Any musicians in the group?

 

Finish your basement, put up a sign on the Tollways advertising the Midwest's Largest Klipsch Audio Museum and sell tickets.

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I like a lot of the thinking here. I do think that less is more typically. My thought is that the first hour could be catch up and chat. Then demo out a system and maybe listen to a selection of tunes, that everyone has contributed to, on a system. Then switch out the system and revisit that list. Or have both systems pretty easy to switch out kind of like we did on sat when we were basically just switching out the CWII's and forte II's, at that point we were either listening to TT, Phono stage, passive pre into the MC30's or apple tv, to dac, passive pre to MC30's.

 

Non the less I agree it should remain fun and overall I'd like it to be fun and really about the music and less on the super technical side. Overall plug and play impressions, though getting volume levels equal is really only fair.

 

Good food for thought 

Edited by Lemon string

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We may end up needing to do a hardcore equipment analysis meeting occasionally versus a musical enjoyment meeting.

 

Only an example, I like vintage Sansui and Yamaha power amps, jimjimbo likes vintage Pioneer gear.  We can pick the matchup see which people prefer.

 

A couple different speakers a couple different amps and food, conversation and an audio sampling worked well for an enjoyable meeting.

 

 

 

Agree

 

The reason I suggested "observed impressions" is I don't think bench tests are particularly entertaining, and you can't drink very much...Is a square wave music?

 

For gear A vs. B......both pieces of gear could score A, which is fine by me, perhaps one performs better with a certain kind of loading?

 

Totally agree, the last get together was about the right amount of gear to keep it entertaining and form solid impressions. I could go for two sets of speakers and three amps.

 

For me, listening to Ronstadt Skylark for 3 minutes tells me if I want to continue listening to the gear. I try to bring content that is state of the art, appeals to  most people and pushes the gear to perform.

 

I would still like to hear a better Mac tube amp than the MC-30s, bring it on!

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I would still like to hear a better Mac tube amp than the MC-30s, bring it on!

 

From what I have read the MC-225 or MC-240 are the preferred stereo amp versions.  Hopefully, I will have the MC-240 fixed and people can have a listen.

 

FYI.  If people want to stop by my place to check things out, let me know, no need to wait for the next area meeting. 

If you want to borrow something to try it in your space, we might be able to work that out as well.

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