Choosing and integrating a subwoofer into a 5.1 system

[JiminSTL]

Revisiting a subwoofer size and volume issue that I have nibbled around about in the past.

 

Really want to get this subwoofer integration as right as possible, but am very aware of all that I do not know!

 

Here’s the situation:

1.       Approximately 6,500 cu ft general area—vaulted ceiling great room, open to adjoining dining area (continuing the high ceiling, sharing the same back wall as the great room and the TV/AVR/main speakers), and open to the kitchen through a pass-through.

2.       Main listening positions range from about 5’ to 11’ from the front of the intended subwoofer, which will be positioned behind the MLP area.

3.       Truth is, despite the greater perfection of multiple subs, that is a non-starter:  my budget, aesthetic harmony, and WAF marital harmony and no-fly zone must be accommodated!

4.       Importantly, my main purpose is HT enhancement.  I have a Pioneer Elite 35 AVR, KLF 30s as fronts, KLF C-7 center, and KLF 20s as surrounds. 

5.       Ear-splitting volume is not what I am after.  What I want is to bring the low end of movie frequencies into the experience, while listening at my typical volumes ranging from -35 to -25/-23 (real “action” movies).

 

Not married to this “solution”, but based on what I have been reading, and upon the cumulative experience and comments (and urgings) of a number of Forum members here, I have migrated toward thinking that a DIY sub likely offers the best overall solution.  Specifically, the “Stonehenge” (30” x30” x 16”--the 16” depth has a lot of appeal!—tuning at 19Hz, and 5.4 cu ft internal volume) flat pack.

 

Seems that most subwoofer recommendations in my price range are a Dayton Audio UM-18” sub or an SI HT18.  Any second or other thoughts?

 

Some “concerns” that I have are (comments about above welcome, too):

1.       Don’t laugh, but am I likely to do damage to my physical structure (drywall, wall hangings, vases, etc.) if I do not often have very high volume—which some people enjoy and consider normal?

2.       Given the distance of the sub location, is my MLP likely to really hear and feel the LFE of such a sub (box) and driver, without “extraordinary” volume?

3.       If the port is to the right of the box (looking from the front), how far out from the wall should I put the sub?  That distance plus the depth of the sub box is a large reason for the preference of the Stonehenge, at 16” of depth, along with the 19z tuning.

4.       Have seen several different recommendations for amplifier.  Based on only 1 sub (no chance of a 2^nd down the road), and not needing or wanting ear-bleeding volume levels, what would work well?  What about noisy fan issue and/or others—for someone not likely to “fix” it himself?

5.       With respect to an amplifier and the one sub, what process do I go through to have the sub properly integrated and sounding right?  Is one sub or process simpler (successfully) than another?

6.       Given that the center channel speaker has a low range of 75Hz, and the KLF-30s are at 36Hz, what would be the proper crossover setting?  I presume that I should take advantage of the 2 12” speakers in the 30s for most music?  Where best to integrate the sub, relative to the center and mains?

7.       Please inform my understanding:  if my center channel has a low frequency of 75Hz, I presume that if I had the sub crossover at less than that level, I would have a gap or void in that frequency?

 

Many thanks for the thoughts and answers that are likely forthcoming.  I do appreciate all your contributions to my education, and my listening pleasure!  I do attempt to contribute here from time to time, if/as I have anything to say that may be helpful.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Not married to this “solution”, but based on what I have been reading, and upon the cumulative experience and comments (and urgings) of a number of Forum members here, I have migrated toward thinking that a DIY sub likely offers the best overall solution.  Specifically, the “Stonehenge” (30” x30” x 16”--the 16” depth has a lot of appeal!—tuning at 19Hz, and 5.4 cu ft internal volume) flat pack.

 

Seems that most subwoofer recommendations in my price range are a Dayton Audio UM-18” sub or an SI HT18.  Any second or other thoughts?

Stonehenge is too small for the ultimax in a ported box, you need at least 8 cubic feet.

 

1.       Don’t laugh, but am I likely to do damage to my physical structure (drywall, wall hangings, vases, etc.) if I do not often have very high volume—which some people enjoy and consider normal?

I've damaged a living room before, but it took six ported Yamaha 18's in ported boxes powered by 4,000 watts in a fairly small space. Split the drywall open and crap started falling out of the ceiling. For even remotely normal volumes from one sub in a 6,500 cubic foot room, the worst you're going to do is rattle any loose light fixtures.

Edited October 27, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[JiminSTL]

 

Not married to this “solution”, but based on what I have been reading, and upon the cumulative experience and comments (and urgings) of a number of Forum members here, I have migrated toward thinking that a DIY sub likely offers the best overall solution.  Specifically, the “Stonehenge” (30” x30” x 16”--the 16” depth has a lot of appeal!—tuning at 19Hz, and 5.4 cu ft internal volume) flat pack.

 

Seems that most subwoofer recommendations in my price range are a Dayton Audio UM-18” sub or an SI HT18.  Any second or other thoughts?

Stonehenge is too small for the ultimax in a ported box, you need at least 8 cubic feet.

 

1.       Don’t laugh, but am I likely to do damage to my physical structure (drywall, wall hangings, vases, etc.) if I do not often have very high volume—which some people enjoy and consider normal?

I've damaged a living room before, but it took six ported Yamaha 18's in ported boxes powered by 4,000 watts in a fairly small space. Split the drywall open and crap started falling out of the ceiling. For even remotely normal volumes from one sub in a 6,500 cubic foot room, the worst you're going to do is rattle any loose light fixtures.

 

Must have been a giant, fingerless massage parlor!!!

[ChuckAb3]

Jim, we've discussed this general subject before and others are better qualified to address the DIY issues. Since I've got a KLF-30 based 5.1 HT, I just wanted to note that my RW-12d sub is crossed at 40hz and we like the results. Others on the forum have differing views. Best of luck.

[JiminSTL]

Hi, Chuck.  Yes, I have brought this up before (although, with a KV-4 center.  Now that I am acquiring [tomorrow] the KLF-C7, which has a higher low frequency than the KV-4, I wanted to see if that might make any difference.).  I particularly desired the input of those who have similar eqpt.--yourself-- as I have, plus those answering the "theory" or practical applications questions asked.

 

I really do wonder if what I want (deep HT frequencies, lower volume, and single sub) are really do-able.  I only get one crack at this!

 

For instance, if I set the crossover at 40Hz, am I compelling the, say, 40+ - 120Hz+ frequencies to take a detour to the sub, and thereby "robbing" myself of the reason and the capabilities of the KLF-30s with their twin 12" speakers, published to go down to 36Hz?

Edited October 27, 2014 by JiminSTL

[Paducah Home Theater]

For instance, if I set the crossover at 40Hz, am I compelling the, say, 40+ - 120Hz+ frequencies to take a detour to the sub, and thereby "robbing" myself of the reason and the capabilities of the KLF-30s with their twin 12" speakers, published to go down to 36Hz?

Might depend on the volume. Most high volume home theater guys will cross over even large speakers at 80 hz and send the rest to the subs. But, they typically have more than one sub when they do this. Personally I like floor toms, bass guitar, and double bass to come through my front speakers, and running full range helps with that, it is a more seamless sound plus the nuances are more accurate.

[Paducah Home Theater]

4.       Have seen several different recommendations for amplifier.  Based on only 1 sub (no chance of a 2^nd down the road), and not needing or wanting ear-bleeding volume levels, what would work well?  What about noisy fan issue and/or others—for someone not likely to “fix” it himself?

For admittedly low volumes, personally I don't know why you'd want to go the DIY route except if you just like to tinker with crap, except your last sentence makes it obvious that you do not. These new Klipsch 15's will literally do everything you want. I've got two and am getting volumes that you would obviously shy away from. If it is in the audible frequency range then it comes through with authority. No fans to make noise either, perfectly silent, a truly plug and play solution.

I really do wonder if what I want (deep HT frequencies, lower volume, and single sub) are really do-able. I only get one crack at this!

Your combination is easy. There's an old engineering adage: "good, fast, cheap - pick two". Specifying lower volume lets you "pick two" in my opinion. Personally I would get something that has high efficiency and is ported. I wouldn't choose the ultimax due to the very large ported design (you did specify there's no way you're getting two so I am assuming space is an issue) plus it takes a lot to get them going.

[JiminSTL]

 

4.       Have seen several different recommendations for amplifier.  Based on only 1 sub (no chance of a 2^nd down the road), and not needing or wanting ear-bleeding volume levels, what would work well?  What about noisy fan issue and/or others—for someone not likely to “fix” it himself?

For admittedly low volumes, personally I don't know why you'd want to go the DIY route except if you just like to tinker with crap, except your last sentence makes it obvious that you do not. These new Klipsch 15's will literally do everything you want. I've got two and am getting volumes that you would obviously shy away from. If it is in the audible frequency range then it comes through with authority. No fans to make noise either, perfectly silent, a truly plug and play solution.

I really do wonder if what I want (deep HT frequencies, lower volume, and single sub) are really do-able. I only get one crack at this!

Your combination is easy. There's an old engineering adage: "good, fast, cheap - pick two". Specifying lower volume lets you "pick two" in my opinion. Personally I would get something that has high efficiency and is ported. I wouldn't choose the ultimax due to the very large ported design (you did specify there's no way you're getting two so I am assuming space is an issue) plus it takes a lot to get them going.

 

 

Moderate "tinkerer".  Not inept, not really skilled either (though, my heart is in the right place!).  The reason why I am thinking the 18" is that most of the advice I have received is that it will be difficult to give me the HT thump I want (given the 6,500 cu ft) with anything smaller.  If a 15" might accomplish that I would be delighted, but other knowledgeable Forum members whom I respect have advised to go larger.

 

Hence, all of my questions!

[Paducah Home Theater]

The reason why I am thinking the 18" is that most of the advice I have received is that it will be difficult to give me the HT thump I want (given the 6,500 cu ft) with anything smaller.  If a 15" might accomplish that I would be delighted, but other knowledgeable Forum members whom I respect have advised to go larger.

If it would help, I have four subs of two different types sitting ten feet away from a living room that is around 9,000 cubic feet, and you are probably less than 3 hours away from me. Take a day or weekend trip to Kentucky Lake and come test drive some stuff along the way, I can easily move one or both of my Ultimax 18's and one or both of these Klipsch 15's in there, you can see for yourself exactly what it would take to fill up a large space to your liking.

Edited October 27, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[JiminSTL]

Metro Man, that is a very kind offer, and probably prudent for me to.  Might I check with you as time slots come up from time to time, and see your availability?

 

Am I reading between the lines that in no way is a single sub likely to do what I am hoping?  Does it matter or make any difference in the answer if I am really concerned about areas outside or beyond the actual seating?  Would a good 15" sub within 3' of the couches where most of the sitting occurs possibly do the trick?

 

Kind of like the sinner looking for a "loophole" to get into Heaven.  Probably does not exist.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Metro Man, that is a very kind offer, and probably prudent for me to.  Might I check with you as time slots come up from time to time, and see your availability?

Yeah holler at me any time, should be available on weekends if I'm not deer hunting. 270-556-8427.

Am I reading between the lines that in no way is a single sub likely to do what I am hoping?

My understanding on dual vs. single subs is that duals can much more easily smooth out the frequency response and hot/dead spots in a room. The consensus seems to be to get two subs even if you have to get slightly smaller and lower end subs than one nice one. Even SVS will tell you this, they'll try to sell you on two PB-2000's rather than one PB-13 Ultra.

Does it matter or make any difference in the answer if I am really concerned about areas outside or beyond the actual seating?  Would a good 15" sub within 3' of the couches where most of the sitting occurs possibly do the trick?

Every room is different and the final location where it sounds optimal can't totally be predicted. Google "subwoofer crawl". There are general areas that typically sound good but the final resting spot where it is optimal all depends on your room and may take some experimenting. Always have it against a wall, so if 3' from your couch means in the middle of the floor, then no that won't sound the best.

Otherwise, THX recommends one in the middle front with one, one in the front and one in the back with two, one in the middle of all four walls with four... down firing subs usually sound best in the corners... one local installer recommends opposing corners... my two sealed Ultimax's sounded better on the sides... my Klipsch 15's sound best behind the seats spread out a little... just really hard to predict.

[CECAA850]

I can't imagine the single sub that would pressurize 6500 cu ft.  Do multiples if at all possible.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I can't imagine the single sub that would pressurize 6500 cu ft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subwoofer#Matterhorn

I guess that's technically 40 subs though.

Edited October 28, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[CECAA850]

 

I can't imagine the single sub that would pressurize 6500 cu ft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subwoofer#Matterhorn

I guess that's technically 40 subs though.

 

 

You'd have trouble getting that through the door, LOL.

[Paducah Home Theater]

6.       Given that the center channel speaker has a low range of 75Hz, and the KLF-30s are at 36Hz, what would be the proper crossover setting?

I ran Audessey as well as played around with crossover settings last night. One thing that irks me is that voices sound boomy when you cross them over lower than 80 hz. It is this way on both Reference and THX setups. Audessey tried to cross my center over at 40 hz. That's probably awesome for rock concerts but when I put in a movie the voices just wasn't right. Bump it up to 80 and it's much better. I felt that surround effects were clearer at 80 as well. Audessey put them on 60. Wasn't as huge of a deal as the center but when voices panneed around the room it was a little weird plus some effects had a little more zing at 80.

[wvu80]

"One thing that irks me is that voices sound boomy when you cross them over lower than 80 hz." (MetLakeOut)  Isn't that interesting.  I wouldn't have thought anything that low would affect voices, but I guess it does.

 

I have done a lot of experimenting with my 5.1 system with the centerpiece being the Onkyo TX-NR717, I can't come close to figuring out all the variables.  I do less fiddling now than when the AVR was new, but I still change things just to see what I can hear and NOT hear.

 

While using a sub Audyssey sets all the speakers at their lower XO point, in my case L/R at 40, center at 60, surrounds at 80.  I reset everything to 80, including the Klipsch CF-4 L/R which have dual 12" woofs.  This seems to give me the cleanest sound, as running the CF-4 full with single 12" sub tends to muddy up the sounds, according to my always reliable golden ears. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by wvu80

[Scrappydue]

What effects the voices most likely is the fact the cone is doing other stuff as well as the voices. So you got some one talking and them some 50hz boom and through the same cone, there ya go distortion.

And not so sure about the comment on two mediocre subs vs one badass sub.

Do you have a height requirement?

[derrickdj1]

Most likely a single sub will not do the job in that large of space.  Also, listening in the range of -25 db will make it near impossible to get any tactile effect worth anything.  Consider a good 15 in. sub and maybe some bass shakers.

[JiminSTL]

Do you have a height requirement?

 

 

If I bought/built one (1) to put along the back wall, behind the MLP, then probably about 40" would be pushing it (WAF).

[JiminSTL]

Might a vintage Klipsch LF-10 (1 10" active, 2 10" passive radiator) change any minds, or be a worthy consideration?  The frequency response is shown as 19Hz - 100Hz.