all about that bass...

[mustang guy]

Mustang Guy:  I would give you some advice, if I had any.  You have such unique knowledge of your listening environment, there is nothing I could add that would be above your level of knowledge or experience with your space and gear.

 

Everybody Else: I have been to Mustang Guy's Speaker Ranch and heard a brief glimpse of what his setup can do, and all I can say is that it is way above my listening experience.  The bass is thunderous in a way I have never heard before, not so much loud as it is all-consuming, it's like taking a sonic bath.

 

And I know MG turned the volume level down so save blowing out (pressurizing) my ears.  I know you guys like your La Scalas; he runs six.  His place sounds better than any cinema I have been to.  It's unique to my listening experience.

 

I think you should convert your digs to a jazz bar and charge admission. 

You and pornstar are the only forum members who have been to the shop. I should throw a party and get more of you all up. I enjoy the company...

[Paducah Home Theater]

"Two subs are recommended..." is misleading.  Two are totally unnecessary for full range speakers, defined as per PWK as covering all but the last octave.  That octave is inherently non-directional to human hearing.  

 

It's not that being omnidirectional makes it immune to problems, but rather, new problems arise BECAUSE they are omnidirectional then parked inside an enclosed room.  Sound waves go out in all directions then are reflected back and either cancel each other out or combine which results in unnatural peaks.  Two subs helps with this.  

[ClaudeJ1]

"Two subs are recommended..." is misleading.  Two are totally unnecessary for full range speakers, defined as per PWK as covering all but the last octave.  That octave is inherently non-directional to human hearing.  Also, in my experience, the fussy instrument setup and such is only necessary if you are anal or in a hurry...either or both.  My sub, shown here as the big box with the port up and the R2R on it, blends relatively seamlessly with the K'horns and I simply have trimmed it over months of listening to various source material and tweaking. 

 

MusicRoom.jpg

 

Dave

It's not so much about output as opposed to a more even distribution of super low bass around the room. Front and back center has worked best for me sitting in the middle after I used REW's modeling.

[Mallette]

Two subs helps with this.

 

But you have to have the problem first.  I've not perceived such a problem, therefore I shall not treat for it.  Doesn't make sense.  IF one detects such a problem and it's serious, seems to me that bass traps and such would be a lot more predictable and cost effective than multiple subs.

 

However, as I've not been exposed to such issues I can't really know.

 

Dave

[CECAA850]

But you have to have the problem first. I've not perceived such a problem, therefore I shall not treat for it. Doesn't make sense. IF one detects such a problem and it's serious, seems to me that bass traps and such would be a lot more predictable and cost effective than multiple subs. However, as I've not been exposed to such issues I can't really know.

 

Whether you sense it or not, your room has nulls and peaks.  You may be sitting in an area that's relatively flat, if so, you're fortunate.  You'd be shocked if you ever measured your room, I know I was.  Once you see what the room is doing you can tweak, trap or EQ and the bass will sound even better than it does now.

[Mallette]

Whether you sense it or not, your room has nulls and peaks.

 

"Whether you sense it or not..." is the key.  As long as the answer is "not," then I don't really much care about the measurements and, in fact. wouldn't want to know.  If something did not sound right, then I'd investigate.   

 

If it sounds good, it is good.

 

Dave

[CECAA850]

If it sounds good, it is good.

 

Then you'll never hear great.

 

You may not perceive a problem but you would most certainly hear an improvement with a little work.  I guess that's my point.  There's a difference between correcting an audible problem and making an audible improvement.

[derrickdj1]

The point Carl was making is that almost all room are not perfect and measurements are needed to see where and to tx the problems.  This is especially true when more than on MLP is in the room.  It does not just pertain to subs; even running multiple full range speakers.  In the end, as long as you are happy, that is all that matters.  Most of the time were don't know what we are missing if we have not experienced it.

Edited November 6, 2014 by derrickdj1

[Paducah Home Theater]

Most of the time were don't know what we are missing if we have not experienced it.

 

My best friend is a multimillionaire who blows money left and right.  He won't spend money on decent audio though, drives me nuts.  He has this huge basement he is using as a media/theater room and just put up an 80" $1,200 TV and he's all proud of it.  He got this little 10" Polk sub off of eBay and put it in there.  I asked him if he had seen "Edge of Tomorrow".  Both him and his wife's eyes lit up, they said they have the blu ray, they watch it all the time, it's so awesome.  

 

Well, then I asked him what he thought about the introductory scene, if his sub survived.  Huh?  No clue as to what I was talking about.  

[Mallette]

Been through various permutations a number of times over the past decade.  Here's the synopsis:

 

 

Some are after great sound, others are after accuracy.

 

Accuracy cannot be measured, only perceived.

 

That which is perceived as an improvement in sound to some may be perceived as inaccurate by others.

 

Accuracy means "How close does this recording of George Mims playing the St. Martin's Schoenberg sound like George Mims actually playing the St. Martin's Schoenberg?"

 

Measurements will not tell you that.

 

It's all good...if it sounds good to YOU.

 

Dave

Edited November 6, 2014 by Mallette

[CECAA850]

Some are after great sound, others are after accuracy.

 

So I take it you're after great sound, we agree on that?

[Mallette]

Accuracy for me, thanks.  Most audiophiles don't want accuracy as they listen primarily to music for which accuracy is not an issue.  The electric based, mixing board created music that has dominated the popular mind for the last half of the 20th century until today cannot be played back "accurately" as there is nothing to compare with. 

 

I have in no way said that measurements may not be in order or of help if one is not achieving accuracy...but is unnecessary and in fact should be ignored if your Vienna State Orchestra recording made in the Vienna State Opera House sounds like being there.  You might wind up with a measurably improved system that isn't accurate anymore.  Everything we do is a judgment call in our passion.  Man is the measure of all things.

 

Dave

[derrickdj1]

Accuracy and great sound have to co-exist.

[muel]

Getting into some subjective terms here... what some call "accurate" is often sterile and unappealing to me.  

 

Another thought...

"what sounds good to you IS good"  isn't quite the end of the discussion.  Some people might think what they hear sounds pretty good.. their friends and visitors might agree... but they might not actually know how good GOOD can sound!

That said, I reject the notion that I have to measure to know if it sounds good.  It can be a tool to help improve things though.  The ears have last say in the matter.

[CECAA850]

but they might not actually know how good GOOD can sound!

 

That was the point I was going to eventually make

 

That said, I reject the notion that I have to measure to know if it sounds good.

 

I agree 100%

 

 

It can be a tool to help improve things though. 

 

Exactly.  If it sounds good it IS good shouldn't be interpreted as If it sounds good it can't be made to sound great.

[Mallette]

Accuracy and great sound have to co-exist

 

Not necessarily in the same room.

 

... what some call "accurate" is often sterile and unappealing to me.

 

Not possible to comment as I don't know "...what some call accurate" nor what is appealing to you.

 

However, I have on numerous occasions had classical musicians I have recorded listen to their recordings on my systems and found them enthused and surprised not at how good it sounds...but how accurate.

 

It CAN be agreed upon.

 

Dave

[CECAA850]

Good example.  The first good sounding sub I had in my living room was an SVS PB12+2.  It sounded REALLY good.  For some reason I wasn't satisfied.  I purchased a SVS PCU and stuck it in the room with it.  Now it sounded REALLY REALLY good.  People would come over and be blown away by the set up.  I eventually sold them and built my IB.  One more step up from REALLY REALLY good arrived.  Since then I've EQ'd and installed bass traps and it sounds GREAT.  Bass is effortless and sounds as if it's coming from my mains.  Each step along the journey, it sounded more accurate and better as well.  If I would have stayed with my original sub it would still have sounded "good" but it would be no where near where it is now.  Moral of the story, if it sounds good, there may be room for improvement.

[Mallette]

Bass is effortless and sounds as if it's coming from my mains

 

No argument there, my friend.

 

Dave

[Paducah Home Theater]

Accuracy means "How close does this recording of George Mims playing the St. Martin's Schoenberg sound like George Mims actually playing the St. Martin's Schoenberg?"

I agree, every time I turn on my system I ask myself things like "is that really how that Transformer sounds in real life when he jumps off of a building?" Just last night I was thinking while watching the Metallica movie, "is that really what it sounds like when Trip drops that sledgehammer and Ryder and his horse busts into a million pieces and all the windows within a flew blocks shatter?"

It's all about accuracy.

[derrickdj1]

I find that people talking about accuracy have to consider it is a near impossible task.  First, we were not in the studio, and would have to recreate the exact room, two, the studio engineers change the recording by adjusting things in the track so that it sound right on the cd, and it is impossible to get all the spatial cues of a mix.  Orchestra are spread out in a large room and so are most smaller bands.

 

All we can hope for is a good presentation somewhat close to the real performance.  With DSP we get a pretty good sound from most speakers and subs if setup correctly.