analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Over the last 10 years or so I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs and worrying about the "cost" of something and who might be swayed by what some here consider spurious or specious advertising is the last thing on their minds. CEOs NOT "worrying" about costs is one of the big reasons this Country is in the sh%t hole it is in On many levels Politicians as well Credit consumers as well Good sense is good sense no matter who you are or your station in Life Citing the pissing away of money simply because you are able isn't a very convincing position to my mind Analogman Edited January 23, 2015 by analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Note that the wire has cost less than the sales tax that they may have paid when purchasing the speakers. Over the last 10 years or so, through my current employment, I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs; and worrying about the "cost" of something, and who might be swayed by, what some here consider spurious or specious advertising, is the last thing on their minds. Obvious on face value (your post) But that was not the original topic Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Over the last 10 years or so I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs and worrying about the "cost" of something and who might be swayed by what some here consider spurious or specious advertising is the last thing on their minds. CEOs NOT "worrying" about costs is one of the big reasons this Country is in the sh%t hole it is in On many levels Politicians as well Credit consumers as well Good sense is good sense no matter who you are or your station in Life Citing the pissing away of money simply because you are able isn't a very convincing position to my mind Analogman I find it interesting in what you were able to "read into my post" and what you apparently missed. The written word and its various interpretations sure fascinates me. While I'm not stating that I disagree with your view of the privileged that have the opportunity to reside in the class structure we live under, I believe that you may have missed the point that Mark was making or my point in how consumerism works in this country. Would our time be better spent fighting the high prices charged for cable to the person that has more money than they will ever know how to spend or would our time be better spent finding ways to prevent the person living paycheck to paycheck from gambling next month's rent in the casino and give them the opportunity to afford zip cord? I suspect that neither will want our help and will tell us they can spend their money anyway they please. Edited January 23, 2015 by Fjd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Fjd, I made the same point you made in some threads in the past...and got "the fool and his money will soon be parted" trip... It was with regard to power cords. Edited January 23, 2015 by mike stehr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Over the last 10 years or so I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs and worrying about the "cost" of something and who might be swayed by what some here consider spurious or specious advertising is the last thing on their minds. CEOs NOT "worrying" about costs is one of the big reasons this Country is in the sh%t hole it is in On many levels Politicians as well Credit consumers as well Good sense is good sense no matter who you are or your station in Life Citing the pissing away of money simply because you are able isn't a very convincing position to my mind Analogman I find it interesting in what you were able to "read into my post" and what you apparently missed. The written word and its various interpretations sure fascinates me. While I'm not stating that I disagree with your view of the privileged that have the opportunity to reside in the class structure we live under, I believe that you may have missed the point that Mark was making or my point in how consumerism works in this country. Would our time be better spent fighting the high prices charged for cable to the person that has more money than they will ever know how to spend or would our time be better spent finding ways to prevent the person living paycheck to paycheck from gambling next month's rent in the casino and give them the opportunity to afford zip cord? I wrote: "On many levels" Has nothing to do with my views on the "privileged" (whatever THAT means) I think you may be the one "reading into" things Waste is waste as is arrogance, stupidity and decadence at others' expense No, I am not eluding to "class envy"; another poster took this one on a philosophical bent, not I Rationalize away And I am happy to learn you are fascinated and find so many things "interesting" Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Obvious on face value (your post) But that was not the original topic Analogman Actually, I quoted the origial topic of this thread below and neither of us are providing any insight into the original topic since I haven't seen either of us post that we have direct experience with MIT cable and Klipsh La Scala (or Klipsch Horn). I was wondering if anybody here has a good experience with expensive MIT cables and Klipsch La Scala (or Klipsch Horn). I am thinking MH-770 CVT or the Shotgun Series (like s3), or even the new Matrix series. I would also appreciate suggestions for other high level cables. Thanks. Edited January 23, 2015 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Fjd, I made the same point you made in some threads in the past...and got "the fool and his money will soon be parted" trip... It was with regard to power cords. I think I remember that thread too. I probably would not have bothered posting in this thread; however, I believe that I have just corroborated to myself what eth2 may have been experiencing when he started his recent thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I would also appreciate suggestions for other high level cables. I offered that: Mogami bulk wire I also provided a link to their current catalog Remind me again, what was your suggestion? Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I would also appreciate suggestions for other high level cables. I offered that: Mogami bulk wire I also provided a link to their current catalog Remind me again, what was your suggestion? Analogman And after that recommendation you proceeded to stay in the thread and throw straw man arguments at me (and others) and references that border on the ad homienem attacks that eth2 references below. My frustration is that those with the greatest technical knowledge tend to prefer to engage in pseudo-philosophical or ad hominem attacks. They have soooo much more to offer that diverting their talents into word game and sophistic diatribe. I am not complaining about witty comments (where would we be without Thebes?), good natured jabs, or nontechnical discussions. However, when it turns nasty and personal, and drags on and on, it changes the nature of the forum. I have fallen into this trap on occasion, but afterword's I feel like a dolt and try not to repeat the behavior. Others seem to relish behaving this way, including some members who I highly respect. OK, I am done. Thanks for listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I would also appreciate suggestions for other high level cables. I offered that: Mogami bulk wire I also provided a link to their current catalog Remind me again, what was your suggestion? Analogman And after that recommendation you proceeded to stay in the thread and throw straw man arguments at me (and others) and references that border on the ad homienem attacks that eth2 references below. My frustration is that those with the greatest technical knowledge tend to prefer to engage in pseudo-philosophical or ad hominem attacks. They have soooo much more to offer that diverting their talents into word game and sophistic diatribe. I am not complaining about witty comments (where would we be without Thebes?), good natured jabs, or nontechnical discussions. However, when it turns nasty and personal, and drags on and on, it changes the nature of the forum. I have fallen into this trap on occasion, but afterword's I feel like a dolt and try not to repeat the behavior. Others seem to relish behaving this way, including some members who I highly respect. OK, I am done. Thanks for listening. I would also appreciate suggestions for other high level cables. I offered that: Mogami bulk wire I also provided a link to their current catalog Remind me again, what was your suggestion? Analogman And after that recommendation you proceeded to stay in the thread and throw straw man arguments at me (and others) and references that border on the ad homienem attacks that eth2 references below. My frustration is that those with the greatest technical knowledge tend to prefer to engage in pseudo-philosophical or ad hominem attacks. They have soooo much more to offer that diverting their talents into word game and sophistic diatribe. I am not complaining about witty comments (where would we be without Thebes?), good natured jabs, or nontechnical discussions. However, when it turns nasty and personal, and drags on and on, it changes the nature of the forum. I have fallen into this trap on occasion, but afterword's I feel like a dolt and try not to repeat the behavior. Others seem to relish behaving this way, including some members who I highly respect. OK, I am done. Thanks for listening. Edited January 23, 2015 by analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Note that the wire has cost less than the sales tax that they may have paid when purchasing the speakers. Over the last 10 years or so, through my current employment, I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs; and worrying about the "cost" of something, and who might be swayed by, what some here consider spurious or specious advertising, is the last thing on their minds. Everything being said about "over priced cables" can be said about amps, speakers, cartridges, turntables and other audio gear. The complaint boils down to: "I disagree with the value." So what? Don't buy them. Most people aren't familiar with the internals of amplifier design, so they rarely feel qualified to comment about the value of a $90,000 amplifier. But, having some experience in the field, I can easily see that some $90,000 amps have nothing more physically in them than their $2,000 counterparts do, aside from "higher perceived value." If a guy with a huge reputation can build an amp, and charge 45X the parts cost, and an unknown guy can barely get the price of his parts back, what's wrong with that? Any angst over that is simply a form of resentment. When I read the posts against wire, all I see in them is disguised resentment. And, it's a resentment not applied to other gear, where high value pricing happens also. The global economy runs on perceived value. And those perceptions are relative. Edited January 23, 2015 by analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) , having some experience in the field, I can easily see that some $90,000 amps have nothing more physically in them than their $2,000 counterparts do, aside from "higher perceived value." If a guy with a huge reputation can build an amp, and charge 45X the parts cost, and an unknown guy can barely get the price of his parts back, what's wrong with that? I like that. 99.5% of people finding a splattered canvas in a garage would ignore it. Someone MIGHT recognize a Jackson Pollock. Somebody else would be very willing to pay $$$$$$$ for that splattered canvas. Depends on who is doing the splattering, or, in this case, who is soldering the components. Also who has $$$$$$ to spend on splatters. Dave Edited January 23, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Note that the wire has cost less than the sales tax that they may have paid when purchasing the speakers. Over the last 10 years or so, through my current employment, I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs; and worrying about the "cost" of something, and who might be swayed by, what some here consider spurious or specious advertising, is the last thing on their minds. Everything being said about "over priced cables" can be said about amps, speakers, cartridges, turntables and other audio gear. The complaint boils down to: "I disagree with the value." So what? Don't buy them. Most people aren't familiar with the internals of amplifier design, so they rarely feel qualified to comment about the value of a $90,000 amplifier. But, having some experience in the field, I can easily see that some $90,000 amps have nothing more physically in them than their $2,000 counterparts do, aside from "higher perceived value." If a guy with a huge reputation can build an amp, and charge 45X the parts cost, and an unknown guy can barely get the price of his parts back, what's wrong with that? Any angst over that is simply a form of resentment. When I read the posts against wire, all I see in them is disguised resentment. And, it's a resentment not applied to other gear, where high value pricing happens also. The global economy runs on perceived value. And those perceptions are relative. In addition to wire and cables, the other topic where I see the “Orwellian-like two minutes of hate” crop up is in relation to Bose speakers. A while back Eric and I tried to describe direct experience about the intended goals, the limitations, and consumer market niche (which tends to not be the audio enthusiast) and we were figuratively beat over the head and various attempts were made to flush us down the toilet with nothing that amounted to anything close to substantive rebuttals and no indication of any direct experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Note that the wire has cost less than the sales tax that they may have paid when purchasing the speakers. Over the last 10 years or so, through my current employment, I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs; and worrying about the "cost" of something, and who might be swayed by, what some here consider spurious or specious advertising, is the last thing on their minds. Everything being said about "over priced cables" can be said about amps, speakers, cartridges, turntables and other audio gear. The complaint boils down to: "I disagree with the value." So what? Don't buy them. Most people aren't familiar with the internals of amplifier design, so they rarely feel qualified to comment about the value of a $90,000 amplifier. But, having some experience in the field, I can easily see that some $90,000 amps have nothing more physically in them than their $2,000 counterparts do, aside from "higher perceived value." If a guy with a huge reputation can build an amp, and charge 45X the parts cost, and an unknown guy can barely get the price of his parts back, what's wrong with that? Any angst over that is simply a form of resentment. When I read the posts against wire, all I see in them is disguised resentment. And, it's a resentment not applied to other gear, where high value pricing happens also. The global economy runs on perceived value. And those perceptions are relative. In addition to wire and cables, the other topic where I see the “Orwellian-like two minutes of hate” crop up is in relation to Bose speakers. A while back Eric and I tried to describe direct experience about the intended goals, the limitations, and consumer market niche (which tends to not be the audio enthusiast) and we were figuratively beat over the head and various attempts were made to flush us down the toilet with nothing that amounted to anything close to substantive rebuttals and no indication of any direct experience. You worked for Bose? Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) You worked for Bose? Analogman No. If you must know, I was a supermarket manager for over 20 years and downsized and rehired (they always offered lower pay than the old company paid) by new chains that bought the old chains twice over that period of time; briefly worked for a fortune 500 corporation and downsized there due to consolidation of regional offices; decided to put myself through college at the age of 40 and graduated with a degree in Accounting, Information Technology and Industrial Psychology. The degree opened the doors where I have done consulting work (including forensic audit work, fraud investigations, litigation support on various corporate topics, and M&A work for business acquisitions) for a large multinational consulting firm for the last 16 years. However, I'm on the road a lot and not much time to post. I've always listened to music, even when I could only afford a simple pocket transistor radio; however, I like to experience different gear, bought and built both tube and solid state amplifiers (look up the amp porn thread sometime) and believe that for whatever I spend on gear at this stage of my live, I'm worth it. Your turn, tag, you're it..... Edited January 23, 2015 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I really wasn't interested in your biography beyond your association with Bose, but thanks for sharing! I asked the question as you had written: A while back Eric and I tried to describe direct experience about the intended goals, the limitations, and consumer market niche (which tends to not be the audio enthusiast) and we were figuratively beat over the head and various attempts were made to flush us down the toilet with nothing that amounted to anything close to substantive rebuttals and no indication of any direct experience. I was going to ask you a few things regarding your direct experiences Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I really wasn't interested in your biography beyond your association with Bose, but thanks for sharing! I asked the question as you had written: A while back Eric and I tried to describe direct experience about the intended goals, the limitations, and consumer market niche (which tends to not be the audio enthusiast) and we were figuratively beat over the head and various attempts were made to flush us down the toilet with nothing that amounted to anything close to substantive rebuttals and no indication of any direct experience. I was going to ask you a few things regarding your direct experiences Analogman Too late, tag, you're still it and I would like to have a frame of reference to your background and experience given the recent interaction in this thread. My direct experience is limited since I helped a friend set up a pair about ten years ago or so; however, here is a thread with a few posts by Eric and I if you care to read it and determine if anything fits your needs. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/154408-vintage-klipsch-lascalas-are-amazing/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I really wasn't interested in your biography beyond your association with Bose, but thanks for sharing! I asked the question as you had written: A while back Eric and I tried to describe direct experience about the intended goals, the limitations, and consumer market niche (which tends to not be the audio enthusiast) and we were figuratively beat over the head and various attempts were made to flush us down the toilet with nothing that amounted to anything close to substantive rebuttals and no indication of any direct experience. I was going to ask you a few things regarding your direct experiences Analogman Too late, tag, you're still it and I would like to have a frame of reference to your background and experience given the recent interaction in this thread. My direct experience is limited since I helped a friend set up a pair about ten years ago or so; however, here is a thread with a few posts by Eric and I if you care to read it and determine if anything fits your needs. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/154408-vintage-klipsch-lascalas-are-amazing/ I'll pass on the invitation but thanks for your interest Was just curious to hear what Bose's intended goals were from an insider's view Was surprised that anyone directly related to the company would be willing to state such things in a public forum such as this one Pretty tight lipped bunch at Bose If you never really had any direct experience with the company (other than assisting an end user with one of their products) then that's fine Disregard the question Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I don't care if people like and own fancy cables, but I do care when I see posts trying to convince new people to spend a huge amount on wire when they are budgeting $1000 for a receiver and $2000 on speakers. Spending any extra money on better speakers and using monoprice wire is money better spent IMHO. People are free to believe anything, but when they try to convince others that these beliefs are facts if when I start debates. Have you seen that anywhere you can point to here? I never have. The most I have heard people suggest is "try it, see if you like it." I see no arm twisting of any kind, let along anything along the lines you are suggesting. Not in this thread, but I have have seen it often enough to bring it up here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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