Ski Bum Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Where's the self deception? You're unwilling to even consider conflicting evidence, even from your own senses, since you deny bias controlled testing. That's willful denial, and very much an I-know-more-than-you-just-trust-me kind of BS you just accused Don of doing. Most recent ABX was done using foobar on hi-res formats. You may want to try that out before diving into that particular rabbit hole and wasting money chasing unicorns. It's all in the production, not the bits, and some of the hi rez format recordings feature modern day, heavy handed production. Boo, hiss! Edited January 22, 2015 by Ski Bum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) "We don't yet know how to quantify individual experience." Uh, yes we do, at least for expensive wire I am looking for the old article now, subject being "high end" "high performance" (as in "boutique") and a sales slump back some time ago I am struggling to remember who it was that was interviewed, but the solution was: 1. repackage and rename the wire or cable (the new incarnation/version technique, aka, "MK II" Version 2.0 etc worked/works well) (gotta do this as every incarnation is represented as the penultimate) 2. quadruple the suggested retail Results? Sales went through the roof (*at least for this particular "flavor of the month" magic cable, while it was in fact THE flavor) Other makers followed suit This all being around the time of the Shun Mook "Magic of Mpingo" trend and Stereophool's suggestion to strategically place coins on top of your speaker boxes for better sound............along with the who could forget it, Totem Acoustic's "Beak" Take a look (seems it's still around) http://beta.stereophile.com/writer-p/107?page=15 Enjoy The Music! Analogman * the flavors/trends seem to change from issue to issue of various rags and who writes what when it comes to the magical properties these rarefied conductors enjoy time has seen 'em come and go in popularity as well is our hearing evolving that quickly!? Edited January 22, 2015 by analogman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 You speak oI speak of experiences. I think I answered this already. Your experiences are predicated on self deception, mine are not. Funny that you advocate so strongly for it, yet admit that you don't use fancy wire yourself. You don't exactly walk the walk. I think you're just trolling for attention now. Be kind, it COULD be logorrhea 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'm not telling anyone what to buy. Indeed, I am offering an alternative view, based on real science, so that people can make up their own minds. If they decide to spend kilobucks on wire, fine. If they don't, they will have more cash available to buy better phono carts, amps, speakers, etc., things that few would argue will make a real difference in their systems. Unless you make a specific recommendation, you are reduced to nothing more than saying you know best what others should do. People who intentionally twist words, and say I said things that I did not say, such as the example above, get no respect from me. I was being quite kind using terms like "Duke of Duplicity", which means a twister of words, which is exactly what you did in the above quote. Have a nice day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I'm not suggesting anything of the sort (that all buying decisions should be based on ABX). That's a conclusion you have drawn and attributed to me, erroneously, in constructing some sort of straw man to beat around in furtherance of the placebophile method, which you seem quite passionate to promote. One doesn't have to perform an ABX test to recognize the wire hucksterism for what it is, just as they don't have to test homoepathic remedies for efficacy (they're just water). Acceptance of snake oil of any sort requires ignorance and gullibility, willful or not. As for what specifically has been influenced by testing, as I mentioned, some for source material most recently. Years ago did single blind but carefully level matched amp test, and still have the modestly priced amp that was indistinguishable from the expensive one. Edited January 23, 2015 by Ski Bum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Sorry, Don. That's not what "duplicity" means, and it's not what "mendacity" means, which you previously included along with duplicity. I'm going to report this to the mods, because all you are doing is trying to get the thread locked because you don't like it. I don't accept coming to this forum and having you hound me with your constant barrage of ignorant personal attacks. It's not acceptable Don. ROFLMAO. Your lying about what I write is not acceptable to me. Your trolling efforts have been duly noted. Have a nice evening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 This thread is slowly going from informative to personal (surprise surprise). Let's collectively do our best to help keep me from locking it. There's been some good discussion. The fun limiters are on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Good grief, now I know you're just trolling for attention. Please take your jihad against ABX to someone who gives a ****. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Good grief, now I know you're just trolling for attention. Please take your jihad against ABX to someone who gives a ****. Please allow for alternative points of view. Just because someone has an alternative pov doesn't mean he is trolling. My goodness Just because you and others are having a hard time engaging in intelligent discourse please do not spoil for the rest of us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Please allow for alternative points of view. Just because someone has an alternative pov doesn't mean he is trolling. I'm not a moderator, and have no power to keep others from posting their points of view. Mark claimed I make my decisions just as he does, after I provided two specific examples of how I do not, and as he did towards Don, he's stooped to personal insults. So no, he was not expressing his point of view, he was acting like a troll. I'm done feeding him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Mark, your inability to construct a sound argument is only surpassed by your misunderstanding of medicine. Good luck with the magic thinking, as it pertains to your health and your stereo system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I made no comment on your character, just observations of your own posts. You can't form a rational argument that would pass muster on the high school debate team, it's there for all to see, no judgement required. And you have a woeful misunderstanding of medicine, coming from one in the field. If you want a dialog, how about avoiding the ad hominems, straw men, and other tactics? So far you've done it to anyone who questions your methods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrofan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Mark personally i do believe the very high priced wires and cables are snake oil. However i also think you have done an excellent job of describing your point of view and i respect you for that. It's impossible for me to know what someone else is hearing or seeing so i get it now. If someone believes that a 1k piece of whatever is worth it to them and what they experience who am i to say they are stupid for buying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Let's say that high priced cables work ONLY due to placebo and that such placebo effect is real in the mind of the listener. Let's also say the cable manufacturers realize this and exploit it by charging exorbitant prices for their cables. What is your opinion of the manufactures pricing structure at that point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Congratulations on your successful marketing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I can't completely agree with your premise that it is all placebo. It wasn't a premise, it was a hypothetical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 If you are a big believer in blind testing, just remember that Amar Bose developed his doctoral thesis and the Bose 901 using blind testing. Maybe they are still doing that because the latest version of the 901 truly sucks. I prefer to use extended listening sessions with multiple sources before I form an opinion but heck what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I've understood since I was a child that MY "blue" just may not be YOUR "blue" (or that chocolate ice cream may not "taste" the same to you as it does to me) once the information from my/your tongue is processed by my/your brain respectively For all anyone knows (and we'll have to assume that for the sake of discussion, 'cause no one will ever "know" with certainty), MY "blue" just MIGHT be YOUR "green" as far as what it is a given brain is "seeing" These things are taught (a banana is yellow) but the actual imprint as "seen" by the eyes and interpreted by the brain, from individual to individual is and always will be a mystery I have also known and understood that not all chocolate ice cream is created equal That can be proven Would a bowl of mediocre grocery store chocolate ice cream "taste" "better" if served up in a fine porcelain bowl in an upscale restaurant, accompanied by some flowery description on a dessert menu, than it does at a kitchen table in a modest mobile home? I am sure, and combined with the subsequent charge for it, it just "might" with SOME folks (in fact I know it does, to THEIR MINDS) But not in the same fashion as my "blue" and your "blue" I could probably do a better job with examples but my point is this: does the fine porcelain bowl do anything to change the fact that the ice cream is of a very pedestrian variety? The ambiance of the expensive "upscale restaurant? No Could this setting possibly give or "create" in the mind of this consumer the IMPRESSION or PERCEPTION that the ice cream is better than it really is EVEN BY THAT SAME SAID CONSUMER'S STANDARDS? Absolutely Trendy, "upscale" clip joints take advantage of this all the time I agree on that point It is well understood that food will taste differently depending on your emotional and physical state Same as the way your system will sound to you Never audition equipment when you are pissed off or tired But different in this case does not mean "better" or "worse" in any objective way (if someone put dirt or drain cleaner in the ice cream) Or the ice cream was made without the sugar The difference perceived would be wholly determined by the individual's interpretation and subject to too many of the intangibles of an individual's psychology...........too many variables to pigeon hole or define absolutely What is it that they are taking advantage of? The gullibility and lack of any degree of real sophistication on the part of their patrons When I say lack of sophistication, I mean by that, the emotional component of desire to eat that crummy bowl of ice cream at THAT particular trendy establishment is more powerful than the reality their tongue is sending their brain So, at least for that dinning experience, reality (facts of the matter) takes a back seat and is overridden by DESIRE (pick your own word if you like) rather than the reality of the situation and events And in many instances the price they are paying (versus actual tangible return or in this case, lack thereof) is overridden by the value placed on the "ambiance" of the experience This is a very real part of the Human condition and the purveyors of all goods and services have taken advantage of this condition, to some degree or another, since time immemorial It is a complex phenomena in that the forces driving it are as varied as there are suggestible individuals but the one constant is, it is definitely a psychological/emotional phenomena and has NOTHING to do with the actual quality of the goods being sold It is all about presentation, whether it be the packaging of a product, the endorsements a product receives or the atmosphere in which a product is consumed (or used) Group think and current popularity are significant driving forces behind this as well The internet has only exacerbated this situation and made things worse at times.............. None of which has any impact of what that product ACTUALLY or ultimately is (or is not) Take a $50 run of wire, dress it up, give it a catchy name and present it to the buying public in a fine mahogany box accompanied by a bit of eloquent prose along with a $1,500 price tag? You've still only "got" a $50 run of wire No matter how many people fall for it (same as the ever evolving what "is" and what "is not" "Art") (spare me the "eye of the beholder" cliches) Sometimes sh%t is just that, sh%t Could this possibly have any influence on what some folks might hear from their systems if they buy these wires? Sure it could. But only because the purveyor of these fine conductors has tapped into that complex phenomena I am feebly attempting to describe/define here now The fact that they understand all too well that their marks WANT to hear a difference, not that they are actually offering any real difference, good, bad or otherwise Simply tapping into a Human frailty for profit BUT in most instances these illusions are short lived People grow tired of any given trend or "flavor of the month" so we witness the never ending release and development of "new" wire technologies and products, few of which possess any merit based on, in or about reality or physics............all marketing and pseudo science or theory at best Just take a look on Audiogon on any given day Conductors once held forth as the "last set of cables you'll ever need" or "the best speaker wires I have ever heard" are routinely being offered for sale for pennies on the dollar If they were so wonderful in the first place, then why? Maybe, just maybe, after the bloom is off the rose and time has been spent with these wonderful wires reality kicks in? Or maybe the powerful marketing has this particular seller longing for that next perfect chocolate ice cream experience? Some internet blog has convinced this person that the new Super Duper MK.II is what they need and is a better match for their equipment? I don't know the answer to that....................... But I do know bullshit when I see it and for the MOST part, "high end" conductors are just that, no different than all the palaver about OFC Most folks do not even know why OFC even exists (well nowadays they might thanks to Wikipedia) but it sure justifies in their minds the confiscatory (borderline criminal) pricing of what is actually a very ordinary, accessible product (high purity copper) The "high purity" "long crystal/long grain" crap or whatever it is, is but one of the many "selling points".......... I hear what's been shouted here to the point of obnoxiousness (I'm right, you're wrong and if you don't agree with me you must be stupid, 'cause I'm Spiritual about it all); that for at least one individual this hobby is more than the sum of it's parts and is enjoyed as a TOTAL aura rather than simply assembling an audio illusion producing machine/system More power to ya pal I'm not that complicated a Being I enjoy industrial art as much as anyone and the history is a treat as well, but for me the primary goal of Audio is the pleasure that Music brings Angsting over bullshit like cables is a distraction (and unwarranted) But what I find interesting is (more so than the losing game of "debating" the virtues of over priced wire) is that with a large number of RECORDINGS there is almost, note I said ALMOST, universal agreement Even among folks who may not particularly care for the Music but who do recognize and enjoy good RECORDINGS And that ALMOST universal agreement extends to those who use zip cord as well as those rattling their audiophool approved cables Not to mention the vast system discrepancies, played on everything from modest (cheaply built receivers) and record changers to audiophool approved mono blocks and the finest transcription record playing machines available Rudy Van Gelders, Living Stereos, Classic's many projects etc You get the point, well made, well recorded records I find it funny that for the part that really matters and has the greatest effect on outcome regardless of what it is played on, or through, there is such widespread agreement Which confirms, in my mind anyway, that the Emperor Has No Clothes when it comes to spendy wire And reinforces my skepticism (I am being deliberately kind) Even assuming the gimmick features of these wires "work", they are at best EQing with cable at a great financial cost And THAT is BullShit and would not be happening if the insecurities and vanity had been kept at bay I am a fan of good circuit design, speakers with minimal "humps" and well conceived and built power supplies All hooked up with the correct type of wire, not what is currently in vogue with the Fremer's of this world Get those parts right as best you can and you will quickly quit fretting over wires Analogman Edited January 23, 2015 by analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analogman Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Congratulations on your successful marketing? Analogman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Yes, I agree totally, that wires at the top-end seem ludicrously priced. BUT, so are watches, pay day loans, and diamonds, and many speakers. We have $400,000 speakers on the market. Maybe higher if you search hard enough. They do the same thing as the wire guys. They price by value, and charge "whatever the market will bear." In market economies, that's encouraged. Listen to any financial show and notice that "high margin" is one of the most prized aspects of desirable companies stocks. A set of speaker wires goes from $10 to $10,000 let's say. It means there's something for everyone and every budget. That's the market ideal. No one is left out. What I find interesting is that I believe that some on the forum seem to internalize everything in the context of themselves and do not realize that they are NOT the target market for the $10,000 speaker wires or cables. For the person that buys the $400,000 pair of speakers or the $250,000 pair of speakers, spending another $10,000 on cables is essentially "pocket change" to them and comes to about 2.5% and 4% respectively of the cost of the speakers themselves. Note that the wire has cost less than the sales tax that they may have paid when purchasing the speakers. Over the last 10 years or so, through my current employment, I've had the opportunity to interact with a few extremely wealthy CEOs; and worrying about the "cost" of something, and who might be swayed by, what some here consider spurious or specious advertising, is the last thing on their minds. Edited January 23, 2015 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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