Church speaker help needed

[mustang guy]

A guy did some upgrades to the church, and he put a couple of small cheapo (I think powered because I can't find an amp anywhere) pro speakers. They are two way, and they are laying on their sides. Here is what the speakers kinda look like. 

 

 

They are laying on their sides, so the horn is not giving very good coverage. People are complaining that they can't hear people talk. The guy replaced the old tube stuff and a set of big array speakers with this nonsense. Here is a picture of the old array speakers. The new small pro speakers are in the place these were, and not even positioned very well (down some, but not toed in.

 

 

Should I check the array speakers out at my shop and perhaps paint them black and re-hang them with a new pro amp, or should I consider donating four of my Klipsch KPT-200's, and if I do, where do you think they should be placed?

[Mallette]

Quote from the past:  "Heresy in the church."  "Everybody thought the pastor was just speaking louder..."

 

'nuf said.

 

Dave

 

Actually, I'll add that used ones are excellent bargains these days and would handle this nicely.  Those are hanging pretty much as in the original Klipsch ad.  Ideally, place them at a height and angle providing the most direct line to every seat in the nave.  I don't know anything about the ones you reference, but they are Klipsch and certainly will be better than what you have. However, I know Heresy's and properly balanced they'll simply disappear as per the ad.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Mallette

[mustang guy]

I have 2 pairs of Heresy's and a couple pairs of KP-201's which are H2 pro. There is no way on this planet the women of the church, and a lot of the men would want the speakers anywhere near ear level. They are gonna have to be out of the line of sight.

 

BTW, the KPT-200 is a 2 way which angles down. Since the nave walls are so high, I thought they would work well cause they use them in movie theaters.

[colterphoto1]

hang these properly that is cabinet vertical with horn on BOTTOM as a first step. See if there is enough output and smooth coverage throughout room. If not, start over. 

 

EDIT - on second thought, what's not needed here is wide horizontal coverage but TALL vertical coverage to reach the back of the room, so the down angle should just barely reach the folks in front pews, with hopes that the rest will spray to the back of church. Problem is, he's trying to emulate a line array with only one box. 

 

As Dave says below ( and I'd consider him an expert church acoustician) height is your friend. A small single cluster as high up as possible makes the speakers more equidistant to all in the parish. However, the architectural committee would probably disallow anything that was visually in the way of those magnificent organ pipes. 

 

Many churches would use a more distributed array with thin towers near the pulpit, then 1/3 to 1/2 way back, perhaps attached to the congregational side of those high beams. But that's getting into more money, amps, delay channel etc. 

 

Perhaps the original installer had the best idea. What were the perceived shortcomings of that system? 

Edited January 29, 2015 by colterphoto1

[Mallette]

You missed what I said.  Hang them HIGH such that the distance is as equal as possible from front to back aimed generally towards about a third of the way to the rear.  Ear level is totally wrong.  The ones presently in place aren't too far off.

 

Dave

[garyrc]

I'd try your old Heresys, in the same positions as the old array speakers, aimed at the pews about 1/3 to 1/2 way back, and upside down, as Colterphoto said. 

 

If that doesn't work, put the old arrays back, painted, with a good amp.  

 

P.S. I noticed the speakers you pictured in your first post in the thread had treble controls.  Would turning up the treble help, or just produce hash?

 

We had 22 rooms at a training clinic where I once worked.  They were all wired for playback (primarily for speech) with c.1964 EV coax speakers.  The sound was clear as a bell.  In 2002 a contractor came in and "upgraded" the sound, with all new speakers, solid state amps, etc.  I probably don't need to say that the new syatem made everyone sound mushy-mouthed.  So many "upgrades" are merely updates, and in fact downgrades.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Garyrc

[mustang guy]

OK, so the consensus is inverting a pair of Heresy's in the current or nearly the same position aimed roughly 1/2 of the way back.

 

I have a 3 problems with the Heresy's.

1. I want to keep mine. And they have a zero budget. 
2. I don't know how to hang them without butchering them.
3. The Heresy has a 30 x 90 mid and 40 x 90 tweet, so the downward angle will be important for people sitting close. That's pretty narrow. I did a rough calculation, and with Heresy's hung 18' up and aimed half way back, everybody within the first 20' will be outside the tweeter axis and inside 16' will be outside the midrange axis.

 

On the other hand, the KPT-200 has a 100 x 100 horn. I have A/B tested the kpt-200's with the KP-201's, and they have a mellow high end and sound fuller than the KP-201's (pro Heresy II's). I can say the KP-201 is more clear, but the KPT-200 does voices extremely well.

 

I will take some measurements to see how far off axis front pew people are if I aim midway back. I would guess about 18' in the air, and the speakers are hung just in front of them. Even with the slight downward angle of the 100 x 100 horn, the 100 degree would start about 9' back. To cover the first rows, the angle would have to be increased about 12 degrees downward to give people within 4' away coverage. What I don't know is how it would sound in the last row. That's where I thought perhaps I could hang another pair about 1/2 way back pointing at the last row, and maybe attenuated down a bit.

 

I suppose I could fork over the $400 or so for a set of Heresy's, or just give them mine, but I have no use for these KPT-200's, and if they will work, I would prefer to use them. Besides, I have been spending a lot of money on the church in the past few weeks.

 

I have to go down to the church tomorrow and fix father's printer. I will take some pictures of what they have and update. I may go ahead and bring the arrays to the shop. Who knows, they may be jewels!

Edited January 29, 2015 by mustang guy

[OO1]

OK, so the consensus is inverting a pair of Heresy's in the current or nearly the same position aimed roughly 1/2 of the way back.

 

I have a 3 problems with the Heresy's.

1. I want to keep mine. And they have a zero budget. 
2. I don't know how to hang them without butchering them.
3. The Heresy has a 30 x 90 mid and 40 x 90 tweet, so the downward angle will be important for people sitting close. That's pretty narrow. I did a rough calculation, and with Heresy's hung 18' up and aimed half way back, everybody within the first 20' will be outside the tweeter axis and inside 16' will be outside the midrange axis.

 

On the other hand, the KPT-200 has a 100 x 100 horn. I have A/B tested the kpt-200's with the KP-201's, and they have a mellow high end and sound fuller than the KP-201's (pro Heresy II's). I can say the KP-201 is more clear, but the KPT-200 does voices extremely well.

 

I will take some measurements to see how far off axis front pew people are if I aim midway back. I would guess about 18' in the air, and the speakers are hung just in front of them. Even with the slight downward angle of the 100 x 100 horn, the 100 degree would start about 9' back. To cover the first rows, the angle would have to be increased about 12 degrees downward to give people within 4' away coverage. What I don't know is how it would sound in the last row. That's where I thought perhaps I could hang another pair about 1/2 way back pointing at the last row, and maybe attenuated down a bit.

 

I suppose I could fork over the $400 or so for a set of Heresy's, or just give them mine, but I have no use for these KPT-200's, and if they will work, I would prefer to use them. Besides, I have been spending a lot of money on the church in the past few weeks.

 

I have to go down to the church tomorrow and fix father's printer. I will take some pictures of what they have and update. I may go ahead and bring the arrays to the shop. Who knows, they may be jewels!

you always do things the right way so we all trust in your wisdom - God Bless -

[Karsoncookie]

Upgrade???  Was something wrong with the "old" components??

Were there complaints about the existing system?

Was the "Upgrader" paid? For the "Upgrading"??

Where's the "Old" stuff?

 

I'd be really upset if I were you and not allow this upgrading.

Church clear sound is very important.  

I'm upset now.  Lars

[OO1]

 

OK, so the consensus is inverting a pair of Heresy's in the current or nearly the same position aimed roughly 1/2 of the way back.

 

I have a 3 problems with the Heresy's.

1. I want to keep mine. And they have a zero budget. 
2. I don't know how to hang them without butchering them.
3. The Heresy has a 30 x 90 mid and 40 x 90 tweet, so the downward angle will be important for people sitting close. That's pretty narrow. I did a rough calculation, and with Heresy's hung 18' up and aimed half way back, everybody within the first 20' will be outside the tweeter axis and inside 16' will be outside the midrange axis.

 

On the other hand, the KPT-200 has a 100 x 100 horn. I have A/B tested the kpt-200's with the KP-201's, and they have a mellow high end and sound fuller than the KP-201's (pro Heresy II's). I can say the KP-201 is more clear, but the KPT-200 does voices extremely well.

 

I will take some measurements to see how far off axis front pew people are if I aim midway back.

 

A guy did some upgrades to the church, and he put a couple of small cheapo (I think powered because I can't find an amp anywhere) pro speakers. They are two way, and they are laying on their sides. Here is what the speakers kinda look like. 

 

 

They are laying on their sides, so the horn is not giving very good coverage. People are complaining that they can't hear people talk. The guy replaced the old tube stuff and a set of big array speakers with this nonsense. Here is a picture of the old array speakers. The new small pro speakers are in the place these were, and not even positioned very well (down some, but not toed in.

 

 

Should I check the array speakers out at my shop and perhaps paint them black and re-hang them with a new pro amp, or should I consider donating four of my Klipsch KPT-200's, and if I do, where do you think they should be placed?

 

 

The guy replaced the old tube stuff and a set of big array speakers with this nonsense. Here is a picture of the old array speakers. The new small pro speakers are in the place these were, and not even positioned very well (down some, but not toed in.

 

 

if you had pictures of the old stuff , you can look it up and see where -how - and what there was initially and evaluate what has to be added to balance the sound - 

 

the old sound equipment may have been exellent because it was designed for the church by a true technician versus the last installation which is clearly not adequate for a church that size - experience , and more experience is the key here - you can learn a lot from the old installation that was so well adapted for the prayer hall -

Edited January 29, 2015 by Randyh

[wvu80]

 

 

 

 

 

Is that the sanctuary for "the pink church?"  (Good Shepard, Episcopal)

 

Edited January 29, 2015 by wvu80

[bhendrix]

Unbelievable.  Well, certainly unfortunate.  That must sound awful.

 

For the deep, narrow sanctuary, a center cluster of two KP-262 speakers, one hanging above the other, hung high in the center of the room will give you the best intelligibility of speech. 

 

The Heresy's are not internally reinforced or intended for hanging.  The KP-262 are fully designed for hanging and are beautifully voiced for human speech.  I have installed these in church sanctuaries before with great success.

 

Michael Colter has a pair of KP-262 with brand new woofers and new diaphragms in the K-65 tweeters that would be perfect for this application.  Both fully equipped with hanging hardware and designed for flying.

 

The sound needs to be focused to the ears of the listeners with minimal reflection off side walls.  I would suggest something like this:

Edited January 29, 2015 by bhendrix

[wvu80]

If this is the sanctuary I think it is, the interior is very intimate, and that ceiling architecture and woodwork is absolutely beautiful.  I'm pretty sure the church is over 100 years old.

[garyrc]

I don't know how to hang them without butchering them.

 

Oh gosh, your'e right ... the Heresies could fall apart (literally) if you hang them.  Please don't do it!  They had some high wall mounted ones at Klipsch, and they made strong plywood holders for them to sit in, with support across the bottoms, then attached the holders to the wall.  Go with one of the other designs.

[garyrc]

I don't know how to hang them without butchering them.

 

Oh gosh, your'e right ... the Heresies could fall apart (literally) if you hang them.  Please don't do it!  They had some high wall mounted ones at Klipsch, and they made strong plywood holders for them to sit in, with support across the bottoms, then attached the holders to the wall.  Go with one of the other designs.

[mustang guy]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is that the sanctuary for "the pink church?"  (Good Shepard, Episcopal)

 

 

Nope. My church is Trinity downtown.  

[mustang guy]

 

 

OK, so the consensus is inverting a pair of Heresy's in the current or nearly the same position aimed roughly 1/2 of the way back.

 

I have a 3 problems with the Heresy's.

1. I want to keep mine. And they have a zero budget. 
2. I don't know how to hang them without butchering them.
3. The Heresy has a 30 x 90 mid and 40 x 90 tweet, so the downward angle will be important for people sitting close. That's pretty narrow. I did a rough calculation, and with Heresy's hung 18' up and aimed half way back, everybody within the first 20' will be outside the tweeter axis and inside 16' will be outside the midrange axis.

 

On the other hand, the KPT-200 has a 100 x 100 horn. I have A/B tested the kpt-200's with the KP-201's, and they have a mellow high end and sound fuller than the KP-201's (pro Heresy II's). I can say the KP-201 is more clear, but the KPT-200 does voices extremely well.

 

I will take some measurements to see how far off axis front pew people are if I aim midway back.

 

A guy did some upgrades to the church, and he put a couple of small cheapo (I think powered because I can't find an amp anywhere) pro speakers. They are two way, and they are laying on their sides. Here is what the speakers kinda look like. 

 

 

 

They are laying on their sides, so the horn is not giving very good coverage. People are complaining that they can't hear people talk. The guy replaced the old tube stuff and a set of big array speakers with this nonsense. Here is a picture of the old array speakers. The new small pro speakers are in the place these were, and not even positioned very well (down some, but not toed in.

 

 

 

Should I check the array speakers out at my shop and perhaps paint them black and re-hang them with a new pro amp, or should I consider donating four of my Klipsch KPT-200's, and if I do, where do you think they should be placed?

 

 

The guy replaced the old tube stuff and a set of big array speakers with this nonsense. Here is a picture of the old array speakers. The new small pro speakers are in the place these were, and not even positioned very well (down some, but not toed in.

 

 

if you had pictures of the old stuff , you can look it up and see where -how - and what there was initially and evaluate what has to be added to balance the sound - 

 

the old sound equipment may have been excellent because it was designed for the church by a true technician versus the last installation which is clearly not adequate for a church that size - experience , and more experience is the key here - you can learn a lot from the old installation that was so well adapted for the prayer hall -

 

I will be getting that information today.

 

Unbelievable.  Well, certainly unfortunate.  That must sound awful.

 

For the deep, narrow sanctuary, a center cluster of two KP-262 speakers, one hanging above the other, hung high in the center of the room will give you the best intelligibility of speech. 

 

The Heresy's are not internally reinforced or intended for hanging.  The KP-262 are fully designed for hanging and are beautifully voiced for human speech.  I have installed these in church sanctuaries before with great success.

 

Michael Colter has a pair of KP-262 with brand new woofers and new diaphragms in the K-65 tweeters that would be perfect for this application.  Both fully equipped with hanging hardware and designed for flying.

 

The sound needs to be focused to the ears of the listeners with minimal reflection off side walls.  I would suggest something like this:

Slide1.jpg

I'll look at the center today. They would definitely disappear more in the center I think. Just as long as they aren't hung in front of Jesus' face. That would kinda spoil the moment.  

 

I am going to get the specs on the speakers the guy installed. They are shaped like the KP-262's. Perhaps hung in the center as you show, they may be adequate. I will report back...

Edited January 29, 2015 by mustang guy

[Mallette]

Both nice.  Sounds to me like you'll be fine however you go with this. 

 

Dave

[Mallette]

Well, if they wind up in front of His face PLEASE don't use the Heresy!

 

Dave

[Marvel]

Beautiful on the outside and inside... I'm a bit envious. Is that Episcopal or Catholic? (They are really soooooo close...)

 

Hey Dave, how's the organ project going?

 

Bruce