What do you think about these CD Changers?

[Orange Peel]

I'm thinking of getting a CD player/changer, and I'm looking at these, what do you think? Any recommedations?

1.) Harman Kardon FL8380

http://www.harmankardon.com/product.asp?cat=CDC∏=FL%208380&sType=

2.) Pioneer Elite PD-F17 101 Disk Changer

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/HomeProducts/HomeProductDetails/ 0,1422,483,00.html

I can't really think of anything else, maybe Sony, but I'm a little upset with them because of my DVD player, but if they make an excellent CD player, I'd consider it.

Marantz? Denon? Just throw them out there for me

Thanks in advance!

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Scottc>s>

Goldsmithc>s>

This message has been edited by Orange Peel on 08-08-2002 at 06:21 PM

[lynnm]

Don't buy anybody's changer unless you seriously value convenience over sound quality.

At best you can get very good sound from a multi disc CD player but will never get the ultimate in performance. If you are determined to go the multi disc route Anthem puts out a decent 5 CD player at a premium price.

[Orange Peel]

lynnm - Why do the changers have bad sound quality? What's the difference between the multi disk changers and a single disk cd player? Would using a DVD player give better sound quality than a changer? I'm just curious.

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Scott Goldsmithc>s>

[soundog]

I use Sony 400 changers and they sound terrific. I beleive it's the DAC and digital processing that makes the difference. The Sony changers sound pretty mediocre using their internal DAC but bypass via the optical output through jitter reduction, great DAC, and other electronic miracles and WOW!

I use the Perpetual Technologies highly rated (Stereophile class A recomended)P3A DAC and their PiA Digital Correction Engine which converts 16/44 to 24/96 and adds computerized interpolation> In short CDs sound like SACDs which sound like LPs w/o surface noise.

With digital it's the electronics not the transport that matters most IMHO.

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Soundog's HT Systems

This message has been edited by soundog on 08-08-2002 at 09:56 PM

[TheEAR]

Sorry I dont belive in CD changers.As most built quality is good for the dumpster.Yes they are very good to have if you want to put most of yopur CD collection and not get up to change the CD's.

Other then this built quality is a shadow of quality single CD players and sound quality while very good is not near the finest single CD players.

In my case the Pioneer and SOny CD changers I tried skipped when I blasted my system at insane levels.YOu know with all the subwoofer energy the Sunfires and Carvers generate any lesser built CD player skips to the point of not playing.

I corrected the problem by using the Pioneer DVAX10,a tank that weighs over 50lbs! My most modest old Denon weighs around 50lbs too. When I shop for a CD player sound and built quality go hand in hand.No fly weight scrap yard supermarket toys.

And my Denon has over 10 years of use and still works like new!Try this with a changer after all this use and abuse.

For most however the sound quality of a Pioneer,HK,Sony CD changer will be plenty.Plus the skipping problem is ..not a problem.

Besides snooty audiophiles dont listen to mere changers.Changers change more then CD's

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Orange Peel]

So if I want to get a CD player other than my DVD player, I should be looking at a single disk player instead of a multi disk changer for best sound correct?

What types of single disk players are decent but not $1000?

If a new CD player will be just like using my DVD player than I would rather spend my money on something else. Perhaps some RS-3's or something.

I can't believe that a changer can be that much worse than a single disk player, is the single tray on the multi disk players just as crap as the whole system? You know, most changers have a single tray too for added convenience

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Scottc>s>

Goldsmithc>s>

[Hardhead]

Orange Peel--

What the members here may really be saying is that CD manufacturers simply don't put the effort into making a changer sound as good as a single disc player. There are lots of reasons they don't. No doubt the changer mechanism itself makes it more difficult to design and build a very high quality player, and therefore would make the final price much more than a comparable single disc player. The resulting higher priced changer, if it could be made at all, would be so expensive that few could/would buy it.

Those who style themselves as "audiophiles" wouldn't buy a high-quality CD changer anyway. The past, present, and future of high fidelity can be reduced to the axiom: "The self-perceived quality of an audio component or playback method (e.g., vinyl) is directly proportional to the effort required to operate it."

Convenience is relegated to those who aren't "serious."

[lynnm]

Quote:

Convenience is relegated to those who aren't "serious"

End Quote:

I have never implied that MultiDisc players are bad because they are MultiDisc players and are therefore convenient and therefore bad.

MultiDisc players are simply designed to attract a different buyer than those designed to appeal to audiophiles and the engineering compromises involved in the transport mechanism in most cases result in a less than optimal sound.

There are many users who aspire to audiophile quality sound who have not had the opportunity to hear really high end equipment and wind up buying equipment that sounds to them to be high quality gear. The vast majority of multidisc players fall into that area. As I noted in my earlier post there are exceptions.

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

This message has been edited by lynnm on 08-09-2002 at 12:17 PM

[fini]

I've gotta say that I've been real happy with my Sony SCD-CE775 5-disc player. I paid $200 for it. A cheap intro to SACD's too. This unit has gotten great reviews, FWIW. If you don't like it, sell it on ebay! I forget whom, but someone's doing a mod on it to soup it up (make no bones...). Do a web search.

fini

[Klipschguy]

I would love to see the results of a double blind study comparing CD changers and single disc players, using the most vocal "I hear a difference" audiophiles.

[Audible Nectar]

I don't consider myself "one of the most vocal audiophiles", but I will tell you that not all CD players are sonically equal.

I used to think that most CD players were essentially the same sonically (much like I used to believe that all IC's were essentially the same). Even as a mid-fi audio salesperson, I didn't hear /that/ much difference.....

Until I became a Klipsch owner.

I recently took the plunge on a used single disc Rega Planet (found at a pawn shop). This player has received much praise in the 2 channel forum - so I recognized what it was, and grabbed it. I brought the machine home, installed it in the system, and placed identical copies of Bob Marley's "Legend" into my Pioneer and the Rega.

The difference was NOT subtle. I was beside myself. So I waited for my wife to come home, and give them a listen. She doubted beforehand that she could tell. She did not know which machine was playing (she couldn't see me switching inputs either) - and she couldn't believe the difference either. The Rega now handles the CD duties.

The IC differences are more subtle.

Much of your ability to hear such differences are system dependent, and hearing dependent. I used to be a non-believer too, but as the quality of my system has improved, so has my ability to discern the sonic differences between components.

As for the "double blind" test, I would love to take part in one of these - just for curiosity's sake. If I were to do this, I would have one requirement - that the speakers are Klipsch (or another horn loaded system, such as Altec, Edgar, JBL pro, etc).

[Orange Peel]

Wow, I didn't think my topic would have such mixed emotions. I just couldn't think that a changer would have different output than a single disk, I thought each had their laser to read the disk, and whatnot, and it was the same stuff. Does a DVD player differ from a good single disk player too? Or is the DVD player more comparable to a single disk than a multi disk is.

I guess I will have to listen to a multi disk player and a decent quality single disk player to see if I can tell the difference.

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Scottc>s>

Goldsmithc>s>

[dougdrake]

Scott - Guess I'd have to ask what your motivation in buying a changer is. If it is for convenience, I highly recommend a changer. As you know, I have the Pioneer Elite PD-F19, a 300 CD changer.

I love being able to fire that thing up and just get a nice mix of music, based on my interests at that time using the categories I've defined.

I can't speak from experience as to the differences in CD players. All I can tell you is that in my system, this sounds great and does exactly what I need it to do. Of course, I'm sure I don't know what I don't know. But until a Rega Planet or something else comes along, I'll be in the dark

Doug

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My System

[Orange Peel]

Doug - I thought you had a multi disk player. Yeah I like the PD-F17 Elite, plenty for me. My motivation is to have a few CD's to choose from, instead of getting up, and changing it, then sitting down, and getting back up, etc etc. More convencience I guess, but if the sound quality is that much worse than a single disk player, that might sway me from getting one. I'm sure with my setup, being very entry level, not pumping a ton of power to the speakers, and whatnot, I probably couldn't tell the difference if I wanted to. Maybe I will just get a changer and later on get a single disk player when I have some RF-7's and a Harman Kardon AVR-8000

Have you had any trouble with your Pioneer Elite? I can get the 101 disk changer on ebay for a decent price when I decide to buy.

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Scottc>s>

Goldsmithc>s>

[Q-Man]

I use a 100 Disk changer and couldn't live without it.

I lay back in my recliner and flip from disk to disk and song to song. I never listen to more then three songs on one disk.

When I want to hear more a little more quality then I put a dick in my DVD player.

I'm also one who can't listen to two channel anymore.

There is just too much lacking in it.

Q.

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Q-Man

This message has been edited by Q-Man on 08-09-2002 at 08:10 PM

[Hardhead]

lynnm--

I'm surprised at your sensitivity to my statement that convenience is relegated to those who aren't regarded as "serious." I was speaking of the attitudes of manufacturers and others who, for better or worse, tend to shape the attitudes and buying choices of high end consumers. Sorry you missed the sarcasm.

Your reaction is especially surprising when the rest of your statements support the point that I was making--the point that we both were making--that the best changers, for whatever reasons, simply aren't equal in quality to the best single disc players. No one said that changers are inherently of low quality. This thread isn't (yet, at least) a "Mine is better than yours" argument. THAT would be snobbery.

It's fine with me if you regard yourself as a "High End" hobbyist. I think/hope I'm one, too, and I believe most or all of us, whether we own CD changers or single disc units, on this bb are. Klipsch are, after all, high end products.

[lynnm]

Hardhead

My apologies.

I have reread your post and realize that my reaction was unfair. I have edited my response to reflect that.

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

[Jobman]

My .02

I have both a Sony 300 and 400 Cd changers.

I also have a tubed Jolida single cd player.

Yes, I certainly and definately can hear a difference. Almost as big as from the Jolida to playing Vinyl.(but not quite- the vinyl rules)

For my wife, the changers are a must! She wants the convenience, and while she can appreciate the difference in sound, for her, most of the time, the music is in the background, and she likes to just set them to play selections from all CDs. Anytime whe wants to listen seriously, she just pulls a CD out and puts it in the Jolida.

This is a good combination of convenience and good sound. I have all the CD's named and organized in an Excel file, as well as the inserts in 3 large CD binders, so we can look up songs and liner notes as needed.

My next step, what I am looking at now, and as mentioned above, is for a good outboard DAC and jitter reduction. Possibly in one unit. There are always several good ones on AudiogoN at any given time.

That way, we can still have the convenience, AND an upgraded sound.

And so far, knock on wood, I have not had a problem with the changer movements at all. ( But I do have them under a maintenance contract!)

Jobman

[Klipschguy]

When doing a double blind study, you want people who really feel like they can hear a difference; the results will be more reliable than if you use "I can't tell the difference" audiophiles.

Truthfully, I'd just like to see if we could reliably hear the difference. If we can, great! - shows our sacrifice of convenience is for good reason. If we can't hear a difference, great! - bring on the convenience. I personally feel that I could hear some subtle differences, but I'm not fully convinced unless I could prove to myself double blind.

I wish there was an audiophile publication that did all of it's testing double blind.

[rowooo]

OrangePeel......remember that all of this sound quality is dependent on the rest of your system. Unless you have fairly nice equipment your not going to be able to hear what a higher end player can do. As for the DVD player acting as a cd player, I bought a Toshiba 2800 around a year ago and just for the heck of it I switched cables from my Adcom 700 to the Toshiba and within five minutes they were back on the Adcom. It literally sounded like I threw a couple blankets on top of the speakers. The Adcom is a five disc player with great converters. You can pick on up for 300-400.00 on audiogon. I recently had a new Arcam 72t player in my system for around two weeks and while it did somethings better than the Adcom, the Adcom held it's own in many ways. The Arcam 72 is a new 800.00 single disc player.

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2 Channel System:

Klipsch Epic CF-2s

McIntosh C-15 Preamplifier

Adcom GFA 5500 Amplifier

Music Hall MMF-5 Table

Adcom GCD 700 CD

Adcom ACE-515 AC Enhancer

Transparent Audio Cabless>