Music Lover vs. Audiophile

[Pete H]

Music lover only, and I can prove it.

 

I have not changed any settings,  electronics or speakers in years but have listened to plenty of music. My choice of speakers are the one's playing, not necessarily the best I have. 

+1, That about sums it up for me.

[Chris A]

Klipsch Tapes Vol. I. Are either of you familiar with those recordings? If so, what are your impressions?

 

I've not invested in the Klipsch tape transfers yet.  By the way, Eargle's book on microphones is worth reading, too. 

 

Chris

[DizRotus]

 

Klipsch Tapes Vol. I. Are either of you familiar with those recordings? If so, what are your impressions?

 

I've not invested in the Klipsch tape transfers yet.  By the way, Eargle's book on microphones is worth reading, too. 

 

Chris

They appear yo be unadulterated John Eargle. Check them out. The price for digital downloads now appears to be $15. You can't go wrong. 

See: http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/collections/klipsch-tape-project/products/klipsch-tape-reissues-vol-ii-24bit-192khz-1.  

 

The Positive Feedback reviews are attached.

Klipsch_Tape_Project_Vol_II P1.pdf

Klipsch_Tape_Project_Vol_II P2.pdf

Klipsch_Tape_Project_Vol_II P3.pdf

Edited December 1, 2015 by DizRotus

[Mallette]

One of the most notable PWK former employees was John Eargle.

 

You will be able to learn about John at the Regional Music Heritage Center in Texarkana eventually.  John Eargle was a giant and from Texarkana.  Near polymath skills artistical and technical. 

 

Dave

[DizRotus]

Dave-

 

Am I correct in interpreting the Positive Feedback reviews as attributing the organ recitals on Klipsch Tapes Vol. I to John Eargle?  More important, did he play the organ on some of those tracks?

Edited December 1, 2015 by DizRotus

[Chris A]

Yes.  I believe his music degrees were as an organ major (Eastman, Michigan).

[Mallette]

Yep.  He covered it all from classical pipe organ to jazz...and, of course, movie sound and more.

 

Actually, PWK's decision for the Klipschorn to extend to C1 was because that's the fundamental of a 16' organ pipe.  Only a small number of pipe organs extended to 32' (C0) at the time and PWK realized that even less people cared or would spend the money (and SPACE) to have speakers that went down to C0.  If I recall correctly his comment was that the Klipschorn would cover 98% of all recorded music.

 

Dave

[Chris A]

Here's an inverse EQ curve (XML from Audacity) for the following CD, recorded by Eargle:

 

 

The particular track name is "Dream of the Peasant Gritzko": you know it as "Night on Bald Mountain".  It's pretty spectacular after correcting the EQ.

 

EDIT: This track is also on "Engineer's Choice II: More John Eargle Favorites".

 

 

Dream of the Peasant Gritzko - Zdenek Macal and New Jersey Symphony.XML

Edited December 1, 2015 by Chris A

[DizRotus]

What low frequencies do the organ tracks on Klipsch Tapes Vol. I hit?  They sound impressive on my system in a small space with four lilmike Anarchy Exodus tapped horn subs that are said (by Carl and lilmike) to be flat to 25hz.  FWIW, my source is a Pono player and the 192/24 files from High Definition Tape Transfers.

[Mallette]

If the info on the recording has the organ specs, you can determine this yourself.  If the low "C" in the pedal is 16', it's 32hz.  If 32', it's 16.5hz.

 

Dave

[DizRotus]

If the info on the recording has the organ specs, you can determine this yourself.  If the low "C" in the pedal is 16', it's 32hz.  If 32', it's 16.5hz.

 

Dave

 

I take it you don't yet have these recordings.  The information included with digital downloads  does not include details regarding the various organs.  Perhaps the CDs do, but I doubt it.  The "liner notes" attached to post #243 above do not appear to provide the organ information you mentioned.

 

I was hoping that you and/or Chris would already have these excellent recordings with the DNA of PWK and John Eargle all over them.   If you obtain them, I'd like your impressions.

Edited December 1, 2015 by DizRotus

[Mallette]

Those are for the "Joe Holland Quartet."  No pipe organ involved.

 

Dave

[Chris A]

If the info on the recording has the organ specs, you can determine this yourself.  If the low "C" in the pedal is 16', it's 32hz.  If 32', it's 16.5hz.

 

Dave

 

I believe it is a 16' bourdon rank and a 32' "Kontra Posaune" rank: http://aeolianskinner.organsociety.org/Specs/Op01497.html

 

Those are for the "Joe Holland Quartet."  No pipe organ involved.

 

Dave

 

Also John Eargle on the same recording: http://www.soundstagexperience.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=322:qklipschtapeq&catid=59:download-music&Itemid=65

Edited December 1, 2015 by Chris A

[Mallette]

That is not it.  PWK would have had nothing to do with that instrument.  It was awful.  I was present at the dedication.

 

Pretty sure this is the instrument in question:

 

Kilgore, Texas
First Presbyterian Church

Aeolian-Skinner Organ Co., Inc.   Opus 1173   1949
3 manuals, 58 stops, 57 ranks
___________________________________________________________________________

       GREAT ORGAN                            CHOIR ORGAN
    8' Principal             61            8' Concert Flute         73
    8' Flute Harmonique      61 *          8' Gamba                 73
    4' Octave                61            8' Gamba Celeste II     134
    4' Flute Couverte        61 *          8' Rohrflöte             73
2 2/3' Twelfth               61            8' Spitzflöte            73
    2' Fifteenth             61            8' Spitzflöte Celeste    61 tc
   IV  Fourniture           244            4' Koppelflöte           73
  III  Cymbal               183        2 2/3' Nasat                 61
    8' French Horn           61 *          2' Blockflöte            61
    8' English Horn          61 *      1 3/5' Terz                  61
    8' Trombone               5 PED        8' Cromorne              73
    8' Trompette en Chamade  61               Tremulant
    4' Trompette en Chamade  12               Celesta               49 bars
       Chimes                              8' Trompette en Chamade  GT
    *  enclosed                            8' Trombone             PED

       SWELL ORGAN                            PEDAL ORGAN
    8' Diapason              73           32' Bourdon               32
    8' Rohrgedeckt           73           16' Principal             32
    8' Viola                 73           16' Flute Ouverte         32
    8' Viola Celeste         73           16' Bourdon               12
    8' Dulcet II            124           16' Gamba                 12 CH
    4' Principal             73           16' Rohrgedeckt           12 SW
    4' Flute Triangulaire    73            8' Octave                32
2 2/3' Quinte                61            8' Flute Ouverte         12
    2' Octavin               61            8' Bourdon               12
1 3/5' Tierce                61            8' Rohrgedeckt           SW
    V  Plein Jeu            305            4' Super Octave          32
   16' Bombarde              73          III  Mixture               96
    8' Trompette             73           16' Trombone              32
    8' Hautbois              73           16' Bombarde              SW
    8' Vox Humana            73            8' Trombone              12
    4' Clarion               73            4' Trombone              12
       Tremulant 
 

[Mallette]

There was a 32' pipe, which would be out of Klipschorn range.  However, if the program were largely of pieces a century old they wouldn't have called for it.  Pipes that size really only started to show up in the 20th century and even then in a minority.  16' pipe is the norm for a classical liturgical pipe organ.

 

Dave

Edited December 1, 2015 by Mallette

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

We might say then, that to best have HipHop and Rap in the home, one would be best advised to build a speaker system that looks like the speakers they put into cars whose owners play that music deafening levels as they ride along?

You probably weren't looking for a literal answer here, but the engineer in me couldn't resist But I also think the answer shines some light on the complexity of accuracy.

Cars have a lot of cabin gain due to their small size:

http://www.caraudiohelp.com/newsletter/cabin_gain.html

In the home, we don't have the same 12dB/octave boost, so the car audio sub ain't gonna achieve that blasting bass you get in the car. This necessitates a different driver design to achieve that same system response....

The interesting thing is that the different subwoofer system in the home is going to sound different - even if the same frequency response is achieved. That whole cabin pressurization sensation surrounding you feels very different from a standard wave passing around you. Also, the different driver design means completely different nonlinear behavior and that will sound different too.

I guess it's obvious that two different environments will sound different, but which is more accurate to the playback intent?

 

 

Different driver design... it seems that guys are starting to use home theater subs in their cars.  I've been trying to follow car audio trends recently and I've seen huge ported boxes tuned to 19-20 hz, with home theater subs with an Fs of about the same.  Even the higher tuned ones are still in the low to mid 30's which was just unheard of 15-20 years ago where a low tune was probably in the upper 30's.  Dayton Ultimax's are popular for home theater but they were actually designed for cars, the fiberglass cones were made to withstand the abuse of crap hitting the cones in a trunk.  So it seems that driver design is actually converging and becoming more similar, maybe due to people's tastes, possibly that it's actually possible now, not sure.  

 

Cabin pressurization sensation... I've actually achieved that with two ported Klipsch R-115SW subs, behind me.  I don't know what caused it but when I put the subs behind me, from 20-25 hz I got the same all-encompassing feeling as in a car.  I used to compete in car audio so I know what it's like and can say it was the same thing you're talking about.  It was a very narrow band of frequencies though and was only possible in that one position.  

Edited December 1, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

 

I would posit that the system must be created around the playback goals of the source material.

 

We might say then, that to best have HipHop and Rap in the home, one would be best advised to build a speaker system that looks like the speakers they put into cars whose owners play that music deafening levels as they ride along? It only makes sense, and I mean this sincerely not sarcastically, that if 90% of the playing time of "Rap Music X" is in a car, that to experience it home, you need a similar rig. I am not at all being facetious here. I enjoy some kinds of rap here and there, so I have no axe to grind about it, or the artists who produce it. I am only trying to push your point to understand it. I thought it made a lot of sense. If you go to stadium rock concerts, it makes sense to have sound that mimics PA systems and so on. If that is your meaning, I agree with you.  

 

 

I listen to rap on my two systems on a nearly daily basis.  Bass response is more than adequate for an older guy.  Of course I have two 18's and am adding two more, but still, I have some cheap little Wharfedale's that I listen to more rap on than my theater system.  It only has two 7" woofers, but it is front ported and tuned probably around 50-60 hz plus bass response is naturally heavy.  Combine that with a little EQ, and I have plenty of boom even in a nearly 9,000 cubic foot room.  It's not 140+ db but it sounds fun enough.  

 

The problem with mimic'ing a PA system is the source.  I used to play bass in bar bands and would do anything to get the sound of the kick drum and my 5-string that we had on 6 pro audio 18's in my theater room, but that's probably never going to happen even if I had the same equipment in there.  I don't know that I could ever put in a blu ray or CD and get that same sound.  Wish I could.  Putting PA speakers in my theater room probably isn't going to make it reality.  

[DizRotus]

Pretty sure this is the instrument in question:

 

Kilgore, Texas

First Presbyterian Church

Aeolian-Skinner Organ Co., Inc.   Opus 1173   1949

3 manuals, 58 stops, 57 rank

 

 

Yes at least some of the organ pieces were played on that organ.  It's my recollection that at least one other organ was used for other tracks.  Unfortunately, the High Definition Tape Transfer site download for the Vol. I liner notes doesn't work.

 

I've attached some reviews.  I confess I haven't had the opportunity to thoroughly digest them.  They might speak to the organs in play.

1957.pdf

Edited December 1, 2015 by DizRotus

[DizRotus]

The attached pdfs were too much for the prior post.

2012 p1.pdf

2012 p2.pdf

[Mallette]

Didn't see anything about the instruments in those.  Pretty sure about the Kilgore.  Not that many Aeolian Skinners of the classic period in NE Texas. 

 

Dave