tube fanatic Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Merry Christmas everyone! Matt, congrats on your first tube experience! Can you clarify one point, however? I had the impression that TS Matt is running the tube as a pentode, not triode, but I could be mistaken.Regarding tubes, burn-in, and all that stuff, failures due to manufacturing issues usually ocur during the first few hours of use in the equipment itself. In fact, during all my years in the radio/tv/amp service business it was rare for a tube to suddenly crap out after the first dozen hours of use under actual operating conditions. According to RCA, tube parameters are stabilized within the first 50 hours. Some industrial users burned in tubes under actual operating conditions for double that, just to be "sure." There is absolutely no reason for tubes to be burned in a little at a time! They are not like the old hard contact lenses which had to be eased into to avoid irritating the cornea and other tissues! Just turn on the amp and listen to it for as long as you wish, whether it's 10 minutes or 10 hours! I've seen many online references suggesting that tubes should be burned in with no music playing for some "magical" length of time. With class A amps, like Matt's, that is definitely not a good idea. That class of operation results in the greatest heat dissipation by the tube when there is no signal present. That, if done too often, can shorten tube life especially if the tube is being run on the high side of its recommended operating parameters (if I recall correctly, TS Matt stated in one of the very early posts that he's running the screen voltage above the recommended design-center value- please correct me if I'm wrong). A blanket recommendation for any class A tube amp, whether it is my design or anyone else's, is to turn it on when you want to listen and shut it off when you're done. I'm also not a fan of leaving any kind of tube type equipment running, even while playing music, if you are not around to shut things down if problems develop. I've encountered many situations in which people left their TVs, radios, or amps on when they ran out to the store for a half hour only to come home and find smoke emanating from the cabinet.So, that's my take on the situation. Matt, I look forward to reading your further impressions about how tubes are allowing your Chorus speakers to deliver sound which greatly surpasses what they offer with SS equipment!!! You have definitely seen the light (or should I say filament?)! Enjoy!!! Maynard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 As for the break in procedure, my amp actually came with those exact instructions, not to run it for more than a 4 hour clip within the 1st week, and after that to increase in increments and after 30 days it could be left on 24 hours if I wanted. It also said not to just turn it on and play music without 1st letting it warm up for a little while. I am by no means even close to being as advanced as many on here are, just giving my my feedback on what I read and was told by others. I understand you're just doing what you're told, I hope I didn't offend. I just never heard of a break-in procedure like that. None taken Mike. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthews Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 ...if the amplifier isn't broken-in by now, then it must be actually broken. Mike, definitely NOT broken. It sounds fabulous... just giving my my feedback on what I read and was told by others. ALL feedback is much appreciated, Jim. This is a new adventure to me and quite enjoyable so far Merry Christmas everyone! Matt, congrats on your first tube experience! Can you clarify one point, however? I had the impression that TS Matt is running the tube as a pentode, not triode, but I could be mistaken. Merry Christmas, Maynard. The pentode/triode is a question for Matt (TSA). I just don't know enough to comment. As far as the break-in period. If I am in the room, tubes are on, playing sweet beautiful music. NEVER to be left unattended. No specific instructions were given as far as length of time to run them nor to let them sit idle. The only precaution was that the tubes must be given a few minutes to warm up first So far, tubes are the Cats Meow, to me - come on Exodus Thanks all, Matt ♪ ♫ ♪ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthews Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 and since I know how much we ALL love pictures, my temporary set up. An empty spot right next to Genesis, just waiting for his little sister, Exodus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Love the custom Choruses (Chori?), they look dope. And welcome to the thermionic zone! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Just to clarify Matt, I am not saying to leave the house with it on, nor am I saying to keep it on without any music going through it. What I am saying is that if you aren't going to set up time to really listen, that you could leave it on while in the house as background music to break the tubes in quicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJPMxx Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Matt, are your speaker amps ultra linear? And I noticed that you offer a 6W6 option for your Genesis 6 amp, does it still put out 6 watts with this tube? Howdy, they are not Ultra-Linear, typically the 40% tap is a delete option from my OT winder. The Genesis6 is running about (trade secrets, 250v on the plate @ 40mA, CCS Bias) = Awesome! No this is not "Shade" feedback at all, however, it is a type of Anode to Anode feedback. You say anode to anode but the 12AT7's anode is connected to the EL84's grid.......so it's plate to grid ala "Schade". Hey Matt, you seemed to not answer my question from before. Does your Genesis 6 amp produce 6 watts at 250v and 40mA bias with a 6W6, 6V6, or 6Y6? Without going into to much detail, the MAX output of the Genesis6 using 6L6GC or KT-66's is 5.86 watts. Using the 6W6GT (my particular favorite for this operating point) yields a hair over 3.2 watts with 200v on the screen. The amp is NOT a single ended triode amp it is a PENTODE amp. Maynard answered all your questions and I agree with him 100% but I will still add my two pennies. If tubes are purchased from a reputable dealer they have already been burned in to weed out the duds. Like Maynard said failure is usually early in the tubes life. Second when myself of anyone else knows what they are doing and builds an amp it goes through rigorous testing and then it should be listened to for several hours, by the time it gets to the customer he shouldn't worry about doing anything besides turning it on and enjoying the music. ToolshedMatt uses a Zener Diode to drop voltage to the screen for pentode operation, for those of you that don't know here is a graph of thier characteristics. Depending on it's conduction is how much voltage is dropped. The screen doesn not pull a constant current. If the conduction region falls near the "knee" then you can clearly see during operation the screen voltage will vary. Not a very accurate way of running pentode operation. In this Class A amp it probably isn't as big of a deal as it would be for a Class AB push pull amp. After all that I am glad that Matt the buyer has had a great first experience with a tube amp as we all knew he would. I am certain with all of Maynards efforts of adding this tube section for education purposes more and more people will find their way to hollow state technology. It is truly magical. Merry Crimbus. Edited December 25, 2015 by xxJPMxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I think all this "break in period, or listening time" is coming from my comment to Matt, not from him. As he and I are new to tubes I gave suggestions based on what I read, and what I was told by the manufacturer of my 1st amp. Mine also wasn't a "custom" build, so I based my comments on a recommendation given to me by a mass producer of amps, and what "tube companies" have in their web pages for "educational purposes". My own lack of knowledge is what caused these comments back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJPMxx Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Hey Jim Buying from a company that mass produces gear the instructions given makes more sense now. They purchase tubes in bulk install them in the device and turn them on for a quick quality control test and that's it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthews Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 After all that I am glad that Matt the buyer has had a great first experience with a tube amp as we all knew he would. I am certain with all of Maynards efforts of adding this tube section for education purposes more and more people will find their way to hollow state technology. It is truly magical. Thank you, "JPM" - I am VERY happy with the Genesis - magical Without going into to much detail, the MAX output of the Genesis6 using 6L6GC or KT-66's is 5.86 watts. Using the 6W6GT (my particular favorite for this operating point) yields a hair over 3.2 watts with 200v on the screen. ...now wait a cotton pickin' minute - you are saying that I can nearly double the power output by going to the "Big Bottle" 6L6G? OMGosh!!! what have you all got me into here???!!! WooHoo - bottle tubes on order - geeze already rollin' Suppose I shall go ahead and start baking cookies now. You know, to smooth over those pesky neighbors LOL - since 1946 gents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthews Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 Holy Smokes!!! - just listened to Martina McBrides "Do You Hear What I Hear". Every hair on my body stood on end! ...again, in a word WOW!!! Merry Christmas all Matt ♪ ♫ ♪ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJPMxx Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 ...now wait a cotton pickin' minute - you are saying that I can nearly double the power output by going to the "Big Bottle" 6L6G? OMGosh!!! what have you all got me into here???!!! WooHoo - bottle tubes on order - geeze already rollin' Hi Matt, are you talking about the 6L6G made by Tung-Sol in current production? That actually had 6L6GC electrical specs but will still work fine great for you. I got a Chinese Shanling STP-10 that I run those tubes in it and they look really nice. Best of both worlds, the looks of the 6L6G and the up ratings of the 6L6GC variant. And yes you will probably double power but only expect a slight volume increase, it won't be night and day is all I am saying. It looks like from the pictures that ToolshedMatt gave you different 6W6s? Here is the amp I got for $250. It had a minor problem which is why I got it cheap. It's all fixed up now and been running those 6L6G's for years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJPMxx Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 That Chinese amp I posted is a pentode run amp too. I was thinking of adding a switch to run triode/pentode but everything is on a PCB so it wouldn't be as easy as it is for a point to point amp like yours. In the future you could possibly discuss with toolshedMatt about adding a triode/pentode switch to your amp, it should be fairly easy to do. Did you order the Tung-Sol 6L6G's? I have some really nice GE and RCA black plate 6L6GB's that sound great in this amp but I too like the look of the 6L6G bottle. I had some Sylvania 6L6G smoked gray glass that I sold to a friend before I had this amp that I wish I never did, they would look boss in the amp. They looked like this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 ...now wait a cotton pickin' minute - you are saying that I can nearly double the power output by going to the "Big Bottle" 6L6G? OMGosh!!! what have you all got me into here???!!! WooHoo - bottle tubes on order - geeze already rollin' Hi Matt, are you talking about the 6L6G made by Tung-Sol in current production? That actually had 6L6GC electrical specs but will still work fine great for you. I got a Chinese Shanling STP-10 that I run those tubes in it and they look really nice. Best of both worlds, the looks of the 6L6G and the up ratings of the 6L6GC variant. And yes you will probably double power but only expect a slight volume increase, it won't be night and day is all I am saying. It looks like from the pictures that ToolshedMatt gave you different 6W6s? Here is the amp I got for $250. It had a minor problem which is why I got it cheap. It's all fixed up now and been running those 6L6G's for years. Those tubes remind me of..........................................danger Will Robinson.......................must save the Robinson family. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxJPMxx Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I think it's a good idea to have another set of tubes around anyway. My feelings are the the 6W6's in the Genesis will be fine at moderate listening levels. Let's assume that toolshedMatt's info is correct w/ 250V at the plate, and lets also assume the Zener is in it's linear conduction region and dropping the screen down to 150V. You can see by the average transfer characteristics that when driven to full power (grid 1 voltage -4 and approaching 0v) the screen current will be 10-15mA. Multiply that by 150v and you have 1.5 - 2.25 watts! The 6W6 screen dissipation rating is 1 watt. Maynard and my concern for tube life and longevity are not unwarranted. Again if you are just casually running the amp the tubes will be fine. If you want to crank the thing frequently using different tubes would be prudent. I am sure toolshedmatt has gone over this with you but just in case he didn't the more you know the longer your tubes will last. Here are the average transfer characteristics for a 6W6: **make note that a pentode's plate current is more dependant on screen voltage than plate voltage. I like pentode mode but usually only if the screen has a stiffly regulated supply.** 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToolShedAmps Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Merry Christmas to ya'll, Matt's "tubes" are "burned-in", ie., past the point of anticipating mechanical rejection. He is simply in the process of becoming accustomed to listening to a Single-Ended-Pentode amplifier. Much argument on many forums regarding whether or not "burning-in" electronics is necessary or beneficial is widely available reading material. I personally feel that most of my "burn-in" process is simply to make sure the all of the components perform at my spec., and that there aren't any catastrophic parts failures. However, I also believe that there exists a certain "settling-in" period of new components, be they amplifiers, speaker cables, interconnects, etc., to achieve the best "synergy" with everything else in the system (much has also been written about this). I have experienced on occasion a point at which an amplifier "all of a sudden" sounds MUCH better than it had during the previous listening sessions. This point is arbitrary, and, I typically attribute it to the point at which the coupling capacitors or output transformers "relax" for lack of a better word. Smoother, more extended highs, mid-bass articulation increase, possibly more extension on the very bottom, sound-stage increases in width and depth, etc.... Just my $0.02...... Cheers! Matt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Holy Smokes!!! - just listened to Martina McBrides "Do You Hear What I Hear". What source do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthews Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share Posted December 25, 2015 "What source do you use?" Carl, I was using Spotify Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 However, I also believe that there exists a certain "settling-in" period of new components, be they amplifiers, speaker cables, interconnects, etc., to achieve the best "synergy" with everything else in the system (much has also been written about this). I have experienced on occasion a point at which an amplifier "all of a sudden" sounds MUCH better than it had during the previous listening sessions. This point is arbitrary, and, I typically attribute it to the point at which the coupling capacitors or output transformers "relax" for lack of a better word. Smoother, more extended highs, mid-bass articulation increase, possibly more extension on the very bottom, sound-stage increases in width and depth, etc.... Just my $0.02...... Cheers! Matt. There's been much discussion about this over the years. Some have claimed that nothing changes with the electronics but rather with us equilibrating to a particular sound. I have experienced this myself, however. After using a piece of equipment for some undefined length of time it suddenly seems to be "better." Wish I had a definitive answer. But, as long as what we're hearing is an improvement instead of the other way around all is good! The corollary though is that a "perfect" sounding system on Monday may sound like crap on Wednesday. Is it one's mood, or the music selections being played? No answers to that one either..... Maynard 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthews Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) A little glimpse of the Exodus Linestage. Won't be long now 3 inputs - 2 full range outputs - remote, motorized volume control Edited January 8, 2016 by Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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