maybe tubes are not that great? I do not know! HELP!

[Fjd]

Wdecho is right on the simpler circuit the better which is why single ended tubes sound so nice and a look inside the First Watt boxes proves the same with SS, at least for NP. The FW chassis make the amps look massive at first glance but there ain't much inside. Running Class A forces a calculated area of heat sink cooling giving the First Watt amps a fairly large footprint.

Now if you want simple and and a truly amazing sounding design with a virtually Black background look at chip amps from the likes of Peter Daniels out of Canada. I am currently running one in rotation with various other tube amps that uses the LM 3875 chip. High quality parts, Caddock, Riken, Noble, Cardas, copper heat sinks. Looks like a big all aluminum cigar box, perfectly put together and will knock your socks off with KHorns.

I've got a single ended EL84 on the way and once I confirm I'm satisfied with it I may have Peter Daniels build me his all out assault chip amp with huge outboard power supply and best internals. Still a simple circuit taken up a couple notches.

 

 

 

I also agree with you about the 3875 Gainclone. Amazing sound for what it cost to build. I spent like $200 for everything and if I had no other amps I would be content just having it. I built the 3875 from advice from someone on this forum who has had many amps over his lifetime. For those that are not familiar with this amp it first came out years ago, and right now I cannot remember the name of the company that still sells this amp, and had fantastic reviews and sold for like $3,300. It is still being retailed the last time I looked for like $3600. For a A/B chip amp it has a very smooth midrange and treble with a decent bottom end and a good sound stage.You can find with a little searching on the Web others that build and sell the Gainclone as it is called for around $500. Peter also has a retail version of this amp along with boards and or kits for diy'ers. Does it sound better than a Firstwatt or a decent SET, I don't think so but it still sounds very good for the money. 

 

For someone considering getting into diy it is a good amp to build first. Very few parts with good instructions and with plenty of advice at diyaudio.com. 

 

Also if you want to build this amp you better hurry, the LM3875 chip is being discontinued.  

 

 

 

This thread from 1999 at the link below is the first DIY build that I’m aware of using the same LM3875 chip that the 47 Labs Gaincard amplifier used.  I still remember that initial “fanfare” of the 47 Labs "chip amp" because I have associated it with a point later in my life during the period between 1995 – 1998 where I had went through another corporate downsizing, a divorce, completely restructured my life yet again, then proceeded to put myself through college. 

 

At that point in my life I couldn't afford a Gaincard and didn't really care, but it seems that the fall out to the Gaincard appeared when many were “disappointed” in how less than $100 in parts could have this type of impact and a manufacture would actually charge $3,300 for less than $100 in parts (not surprising since there are some that are upset with the price of a K402 over the cost of the materials).  The big gainclone threads on the DIYAudio forum that Peter and others started really put this chip on the map from a simple DIY project perspective.

 

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=general&m=29634

 

 

Since I’m more of a builder rather than engineer, when these chips presented themselves for things I wanted to explore, I focused on what people were doing with the LM3886 given it was an upgraded version of the “classic” or “infamous” (take your pick since it went against conventional wisdom at that time) LM3875. 

 

The LM3875 came after the LM1875 and is actually the most basic of the “higher power” chip amps of this series by Texas Instruments, with the more advanced designs being the LM3886 and LM4780 (essentially two LM3886 dies inside the larger package).  The LM3886 has higher current handling (in theory should make it more capable of handling 4 ohm impedance loads) vs. the LM3875 and added mute functionality.

 

On a side note, Peter of AudioSector has a LM4780 Amplifier Kit for sale, in addition to his LM3875 kit, but I haven’t worked it into any of my audio budget to experiment.

 

http://www.audiosector.com/lm4780.shtml

 

 

 

However, as with anything in audio, these chips will still involve trade-offs and compromises.  The video of the Harman Kardon AVR with the LM3886 seems to confirm my suspicions that the LM3886, even with the higher current handling capabilities, shows excellent specifications in power output and shows very low distortion and noise levels, but will tend to have difficulties with high volume levels or difficult loads; and in certain situations it does not appear to be able to handle running into both situations simultaneously (regardless of the capacitance or heat-sinking).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given the above with the Harman Kardon AVR implementation, as I referenced earlier about consumer audio gear with potentially poor implementations of traditional amplification, I still believe that there are real opportunities to upgrade some of the cheaper amplifiers out there. I picked up an old Harman Kardon AVR 345 for pennies on the dollar that will be slated for LM3886 chips at some point.

 

Another “chip amp” blast from my past, is my “McGainclone” that is based on an un-restorable McIntosh MC250 amplifier and a couple of the assembled LM3886 modules.  While I have not compared this amplifier to a properly restored McIntosh MC250 amplifier, I like this modification a lot as this amplifier helps provide a very pleasing listening experience. 

 

I don't know for sure, but just maybe, it's about those Mac transformers?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Dr Morbius]

I had for many years a highly rated Dumont stereo amp from the early 60's and was very happy with the sound, When I got an HH Scott amp, the change was astounding. The main difference was the output transformers which were huge compared to the Dumont. Does anyone have a similar experience with tube amps having small output transformers and others with large transformers?  I remember someone on this forum saying it didn't matter, but I'm not sure about that.

[NOSValves]

Oh output transformers quality is monumentally important to the end result and the size is not the absolute determining factor. What i mean is you can have two identical size transformers and one be horrible and the other spectacular. The talent and technique of the winder is the most important factor.

A tube amp can only perform as well as the output transformer is capable of performing. The circuit is also very important but no amount of circuit tuning is going to completely make up for a poor performing output transformer.

[staygroovybaby]

Just my two cents, & I know many will disagree. I have done many comparisons with all kinds of different combinations of tube & ss gear with various speakers. About 4 months back, I bought some very nice Mac tube gear. I listened to it for some time and was not impressed. I put it up for sale & a man called and asked why I was selling such nice gear. My response to him was, after years of experimenting with a ton of different gear, I reached an opinion that for the following reasons, I did not care for tube gear. ( maintenance, heat, sound, cost ect ect, ).  He said he preferred tube over ss. I told him my mind was made up, ss all the way. He stated, I need to come and listen to his tube system  and I would change my mind.  We live over 9 hours apart, for that reason I declined. He wanted the Mac gear and made the trip to my place. He listened to the mac and could not get his wallet out fast enough. He also stated, it was a good thing I did not make the trip to listen to his system, because the sound he was hearing with the mac tube gear he had come to listen to was blowing his away. He ask why I did not care for what I was hearing. Here is where I will get my butt kicked for my comment. My response about what I was hearing, was simple ( it sucks ). Sorry for my choice of words. But that is how I felt.   I ask him to take a few minutes and listen to the same speakers on my ss gear. When I hooked it up and he and his wife took a listen, both their jaws dropped.   His wife looked at him ans said ( now that is beautiful sound.) He had that deer in the headlights look.  Everyone likes what they like. We are all different. Makes for an exciting world.  This is one crazy hobby we have, ( the hunt, the expense, the time and on and on.) Buy the ticket  take the ride.  I bought many tickets and rode many times.  For me its SS Gear all day long. Just my two cents. 

 

Enjoy your music, and to everyone, I hope you have the best of days.   Dean

[Mallette]

Odd are those who prefer SS enjoy "hard" listening environments.  Given the merciless transparency of horns adding the merciless transparency of SS makes for a VERY sharp listening experience.  Concert venues are not mercilessly transparent, thankfully.  I am reminded of the deadened NBC studios where so many of the great Toscanni recordings were made.  Merciless transparency that put every instrument...and every limitation of the recording technology of the day...right in your face. 

 

For horn listening, tubes take the edge off for many of us.  Easy to say it isn't as accurate.  But accuracy isn't the end for everyone.  Some of us prefer a softer, gentler, more musical experience.  There is a reason electric guitarists prefer tubes, and it is that muscality vs. harsh reality when overdriven to achieve what the artist is after. 

 

There is no wrong or right here, just preference. 

 

Dave

[2Bmusic]

I guess I do not deserve to be in your company. Why?  Well, because the verdict is in. LONG LONG story short... After A/B the QS horn monos and my Aventage 1030 for 3 days about 3 to 5 hrs per day.... swapped speakers from one amp to the other...my self, my wife and another person could not tell much of a difference. They both sounded very good. Can the system ( khorns)  sound better?  HECK FIRE i have no idea.  I have bought and returned a Emotiva XPA2, First Watt F6, and the Horn Monos.  The Yammy is just that good.  I hate to say it. I am very disappointed. Either my ears are worthless or the difference is not worth mentioning.  I Also tried $580. interconnect cables.  Maybe my Stealth DC-1 is the bottle neck.   I do not know.   BUT.... I do know this.  The 1030 is plenty good enough.  And the fact that I only paid $500 for it is even better.  I would still like to try the Pass 30.8.  But for that much money, it would have to be spectacularly better. I do not think it will be. 

 

FYI... the signal path is mac book pro 2015 to  Stealth DC-1 via a 12 foot $5.00 USB cable to the HT Yamaha 1030 to the  Khorns via "monoprice' 16 gauge speaker cable.

 

I think to bring it to life ( more than what it is)  I need to spin vinyl.  ANY ONE HAVE Suggestions for a turn table? Can I get by with out spending  the $2,100 for a VPI Scout. In other words am I throwing money away on a $600 Pro-jec type?

 

SIGNED....

FLUMUXED !

Edited April 5, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[Mallette]

Can I get by with out spending the $2,100 for a VPI Scout. In other words am I throwing money away on a $600 Pro-jec type?

 

I have the Scout, and love it to death and no more TT envy.  OTOH, satisfying record playing can be had for a LOT less.  The project is a good one and there are others.

 

I had the opportunity and wanted to be done for life and have something to pass to my son.  If I hadn't been able to, I'd be happy with a wide selection of offerings.

 

Dave

[tube fanatic]

Odd are those who prefer SS enjoy "hard" listening environments.  Given the merciless transparency of horns adding the merciless transparency of SS makes for a VERY sharp listening experience.  Concert venues are not mercilessly transparent, thankfully.  I am reminded of the deadened NBC studios where so many of the great Toscanni recordings were made.  Merciless transparency that put every instrument...and every limitation of the recording technology of the day...right in your face. 

 

For horn listening, tubes take the edge off for many of us.  Easy to say it isn't as accurate.  But accuracy isn't the end for everyone.  Some of us prefer a softer, gentler, more musical experience.  There is a reason electric guitarists prefer tubes, and it is that muscality vs. harsh reality when overdriven to achieve what the artist is after. 

 

There is no wrong or right here, just preference. 

 

Dave

You made a good point with this Dave.  For example, the guy down the road (the professional musician) just sold his Rogue Stereo 90, which he ran in triode mode, because he needed money.  In its place he reconnected his Krell KSA-250 which is rated for 250 wpc into 8 ohms and doubles its output with each halving of speaker impedance all the way down to 2 kw into 1 ohm!!!  He's using it with CWs.  It is the most awful sounding amp one could possibly encounter.  I find it unlistenable, regardless of level, in spite of its extremely low distortion.  "Hard" doesn't even begin to describe what this combo sounds like, it's that bad. But, as much as he preferred the sound of the Rogue, he says that getting his usual 105-110 db listening level is more important.  Like you, I'll take tubes any time, even if they are not "accurate."

Maynard

[Ski Bum]

FLUMUXED !

 

Don't be too flummoxed.  Think of it this way.  The Yamaha is a very decent piece of kit.  Tube kit comes in a whole spectrum, from the ones engineered to be more linear, and various other types that exhibit a range of misbehaviors.  The QS amps are closer to the linear end of the tube amp spectrum, so their relative similarity to the Yamaha shouldn't be too surprising.  The single ended amps, on the other hand, are at the other end of the tube zone, and they do impart a rather lyrical "processing" effect via such misbehavior.  Maybe that's what you're seeking.  (But even so, keep the Yamaha.) 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Ski Bum

[2Bmusic]

WDECHO... do you really think it will sound better than the 1030?

Today i was able to connect my macbook to the 1030 via air play.  That connection sounds better than the usb.

MaYBE BECAUSE THE  the signal path is different.  NOW it is:  Mac to 1030 via wifi.   Wifi to the 1030.  THEN the 1030 does the D to A conversion.   AMAZING technology!  

[2Bmusic]

Never having heard one I have to say tubes still are King, specifically a good SET which we as Klipsch owners can enjoy where most conventional speaker owners would need more power than they can deliver to wake up their speakers. This is my speakers in my room with my ears and right now I have almost a dozen quality amps sitting around, half SS and half tubes. I have built 4 of the Firstwatt offerings and they are great sounding, almost as good as a SET!  Again in my room with my speakers and my ears. 

You say tubes are king. I have to say that the s e t  big ben from amps and sound did sound great on the laScalas.   But much of the base was missing.  There fore much of the music was missing.   Heck even watching TV... the big bang theory is amazing when they switch scenes.  I never heard that with the lascalas..... AT ALL !!!

The k horns to lascalas  is so vastly different.  I guess I would need to by amp the khorns.  Tubes up top and 200 watt ss for bass..... like this guy!  > http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/reviewers/acolinflood.htm

[2Bmusic]

What tube amp sounds good with Khorns.  Thus far the QS horn mono and Big Ben.. were no better than the yamaha HT 1030.  I wonder if it could be due to my set up?   Mac to Stealth DC-1 ( emotiva)  used as pre-amp as well?    It is a reference level device.

[NOSValves]

What tube amp sounds good with Khorns.  Thus far the QS horn mono and Big Ben.. were no better than the yamaha HT 1030.  I wonder if it could be due to my set up?   Mac to Stealth DC-1 ( emotiva)  used as pre-amp as well?    It is a reference level device.

 

 

 Not everyone is in this low watt SET are king camp... I personally think SET overall sound like dung and always have. I love tubes but not SET...especially the low cost versions... I've heard some real heavy hitter SET amps in my day and they do sound very nice until you lean on the volume a little. Yup things can get Loud with low powered amps....but the perceived loudness is from the extremely high distortion they produce when you turn them up IMHO. 

 

 To me a nicely designed and implemented 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60 watt push pull tube amplifier and Klipsch is heaven... I use higher power tubes amps not because I use the maximum available power...I use them because tube amps make there best sound at the lower portion of the available power. When is comes to tube amps the more power you use the more distortion comes with it... a 60 watt tube amps has a much larger window at the low end of its available power that is ultra low distortion... 

 

Realize the Low watt SET crowd seem to be the most vocal bunch in this hobby.....the minority speaks kind of thing. 

[Ski Bum]

Nice post, Craig, lot to agree with there.  I would say that if the goal is to use your tube amp as some sort of ear-friendly compressor, then the little single ended jobs' monotonic distortion pattern beats the odd predominant pattern of pp amps.  It seems to me that 2Bmusic wants more tube coloration, as opposed to your "bigger window" approach that yields less tube coloration, which seems to reflect his tube dabbling thus far. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Ski Bum

[2Bmusic]

Nice post, Craig, lot to agree with there.  I would say that if the goal is to use your tube amp as some sort of ear-friendly compressor, then the little single ended jobs' monotonic distortion pattern beats the odd predominant pattern of pp amps.  It seems to me that 2Bmusic wants more tube coloration, as opposed to your "bigger window" approach that yields less tube coloration, which seems to reflect his tube dabbling thus far. 

In full disclosure  I am looking for the best sound possible. The means to get there is unknown to me at this time.  Maybe I have arrived. AS you know I had a P/P 25 watt EL84 mono block set up. It sound a smidgen better than the yammy 1030... but only on a very few songs. 3 days and 3 sets of ears could not tell one from the other. 

 

1. I have no idea who else sells tubes or SS that I could try other than the Pass30.8.   Six moons review of that amp simply said  ( in my words here) the 30.8 is over the top good.   And that was against mega buck tube and SS Power AMPS.

 

Like the review I linked to above, and my electronics background,  prove that listening at 1 watt you need at least 20 more to pull from during dynamic passes. 

 

I am not up to building anything. Mike Sanders of QS fame and Nelson Pass are far more accomplished than I in that realm.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a 30 watt SS amp playing at one 1 watt.   With out question some music will dig into the 25 watt mark. That is the reason for that pass 30.8

 

At Best buy they have $50,000 worth of Mac amp preamp etc playing into $15,000  martin logans.  Horrible compared to my khorns.

When my K horns were puiing 1 watt the ML's were pulling 75. Point is the 30.8 power wise is certainly not to much power. If I never use the last 5 or so watts, all the better. The more power you pull from any amp, the more distortion it makes.  I love my horns because they address the issue of efficiency.  The Folded Bass is a wonder of the universe. ( there may be others, but they will cost way WAY more than what I paid for these 20+ yr old Khorns. 

 

I do not want or need to spend ~4 Large on a used 30.8.  But if the sound is way better, then that is good. Same thing goes for tubes.  I would try A&S casablancas but once you buy they are yours.   NOT going to happen for me. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[Fjd]

I have been reading everything I can find on Valve and xistor amps.   These articles gives one to think tubes really really are not as good as transistors for the many reasons he says.   I do not know.  What do you folks think?   I am not looking for feelings,  more on a fact finding mission.  Personally I lean strongly to tubes. When I graduated from electronics school transistors were just in their infancy. ( a hint of my youth or lack there-of) 

 

http://sound.westhost.com/valves/valve-trans.html      part 1

 

http://sound.westhost.com/valves/valve-trans2.html        part 2

 

 

please give thoughtful answers. I need an amp for my khorns.  I had an F6.  It was ok, a little better than my yamaha 1030 HT amp.  But not thousands better.   The next step/ choice would be the Pass xa30.8   I just hate to spend that much money.  At least if I get the 30.8, I can rest assured that it does not get much better.

 

What makes this so difficult is so many say, "this amp or that sounds just like valve amp".   Heck just buy a valve amp and be done with it!

 

MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS that when it comes to tubes these days, good ones will be hard to come by.  And the thought of having to replace every 1 to 4,000  ( one to three years)  hours is damn scary!

 

I was thinking about trying the Quicksilver Audio Horn Mono's.  They seem custom made for KHorns!

http://www.quicksilveraudio.com/products/hornmono.html

 

 

Maynard,

I much MUCH prefer the Khorns over the LaScala's.  My Khorns have the back enclosed so I have more options for placement. The Big Ben sounded great on the LS. It really did....  HOWEVER, Base was completely absent when compared to the MIGHTY Khorns!  I have found that the khorns really come alive with more than 4 watts.  The Quicksilver Audio Horn Mono's are designed by an Electrical Engineer  ( Mike) for our horn speakers.  25 watts each should do great. Since they are push-pull AB, the bass will be tight as well. 

 

Mike also explained in technical terms how with transistors vs tubes.... that valves really are the best way to amplify audio. 

 

 

Thanks to all who have contributed. I am ordering the Horn Mono-blocks today from Quicksilver audio. 

 

 

 

 

HOWEVER, Base was completely absent when compared to the MIGHTY Khorns!

 

You attributed lack of bass to the difference in speakers not the difference in amps correct?  I have a Stereo 15 amp from Justin on a pair of Cornscallas and there is absolutely no lack of bass there.

 

lack of bass ( base)  ( bass looks funny... like the bass fish...)  is because LaScalas low freq cut off is around ~ 40 hz and starts at~ 50. This is because they were purposed for loudspeakers more than to be used as a means to play High Fidelity music.  They sound good, don't misunderstand. BUT... When compared to Khorns.... well they don't compare in the realm of HiFi music reproduction. 

 

Your Cornscallas will certainly have better base than LaScalas.  The folded horn of the Khorn takes BASS  to the next level. 

Have you listened to Khorns set up with good equipment ?  When I did, I could not believe my ears.  Far better than the Snells of old. SNELLS were reference quality used to determine if this violin or that piano was up to speed.  They were used for chamber music reproduction.  That is not easy to do. 

 

 

 

Well 2 hours later and Viola!   Cold soldered joint on bias resistor to one of the EL p/p tubes.

Sounds very good.  Better than my Advantage 1030.... not sure.   Playing Bella Flecks Cosmic hippo, the base is so strong that I had to turn it down with equalizer on the iTunes control panel!

 

Yes, I like it!

 

 

I guess I do not deserve to be in your company. Why?  Well, because the verdict is in. LONG LONG story short... After A/B the QS horn monos and my Aventage 1030 for 3 days about 3 to 5 hrs per day.... swapped speakers from one amp to the other...my self, my wife and another person could not tell much of a difference. They both sounded very good. Can the system ( khorns)  sound better?  HECK FIRE i have no idea.  I have bought and returned a Emotiva XPA2, First Watt F6, and the Horn Monos.  The Yammy is just that good.  I hate to say it. I am very disappointed. Either my ears are worthless or the difference is not worth mentioning.  I Also tried $580. interconnect cables.  Maybe my Stealth DC-1 is the bottle neck.   I do not know.   BUT.... I do know this.  The 1030 is plenty good enough.  And the fact that I only paid $500 for it is even better.  I would still like to try the Pass 30.8.  But for that much money, it would have to be spectacularly better. I do not think it will be. 

 

FYI... the signal path is mac book pro 2015 to  Stealth DC-1 via a 12 foot $5.00 USB cable to the HT Yamaha 1030 to the  Khorns via "monoprice' 16 gauge speaker cable.

 

I think to bring it to life ( more than what it is)  I need to spin vinyl.  ANY ONE HAVE Suggestions for a turn table? Can I get by with out spending  the $2,100 for a VPI Scout. In other words am I throwing money away on a $600 Pro-jec type?

 

SIGNED....

FLUMUXED !

 

 

Nice post, Craig, lot to agree with there.  I would say that if the goal is to use your tube amp as some sort of ear-friendly compressor, then the little single ended jobs' monotonic distortion pattern beats the odd predominant pattern of pp amps.  It seems to me that 2Bmusic wants more tube coloration, as opposed to your "bigger window" approach that yields less tube coloration, which seems to reflect his tube dabbling thus far. 

 

 

 

Actually, the OP has already had a single-ended amplifier (the Big Ben is based off the Shannon Parks Clementine single-ended circuit and modified for the 6L6 or KT88 series of tubes) in his system; however, from the posts above, it seems to have some trouble driving the bass below the horn cut-off on the La Scala, which I would expect once transitioning to the frequency range below the horn cut-off, but appears to be fine in the Klipschorns.

 

Part of what I see as problematic (and potentially leading to what appears to be frustration for the OP and others posting) with this thread is that the thread started out as a type of general critique of Rod Elliott's white papers on tubes and solid state then evolved into a tube amplifier hunt with no specific criteria or objective in mind. 

 

For example, what makes this a very difficult situation is that I cannot find where there has been any identification of the specific negative characters of sound that the OP doesn't like with the Yamaha 1030.  In many respects this is like going to the doctor and just stating "Doc, I don't feel well today, treat me."  Without a specific understanding of what is currently viewed as wrong (or lacking or could be improved upon) with the sound with the Yamaha 1030, it is impossible to diagnose and make any type of recommendation that would even be remotely useful.

 

The aspect of having no specific goal is why I haven't directly responded to anything and only provided a few posts on various types of amplifiers and topologies where I had some direct experience.  It seems that every time the kids come to me for advice, I end up asking them, "what are you trying to specifically accomplish and how do you believe these steps will be important in getting you there"?

[NOSValves]

messed it up. 

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by NOSValves

[NOSValves]

 

Nice post, Craig, lot to agree with there.  I would say that if the goal is to use your tube amp as some sort of ear-friendly compressor, then the little single ended jobs' monotonic distortion pattern beats the odd predominant pattern of pp amps.  It seems to me that 2Bmusic wants more tube coloration, as opposed to your "bigger window" approach that yields less tube coloration, which seems to reflect his tube dabbling thus far. 

In full disclosure  I am looking for the best sound possible. The means to get there is unknown to me at this time.  Maybe I have arrived. AS you know I had a P/P 25 watt EL84 mono block set up. It sound a smidgen better than the yammy 1030... but only on a very few songs. 3 days and 3 sets of ears could not tell one from the other. 

 

 

 

What was this 25 watt PP EL84 amplifier?

[Ski Bum]

The Big Ben uses nfb and is pretty well composed as far as single ended amps go.  Maybe a more unruly, zero nfb type would add more tube spice?  As the output impedance goes up, so does the undamped peak at woofer resonance.  The added boom (and higher distortion overall-referring to that ear-friendly, compressor/loudness type distortion) may be the secret sauce the OP is after. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Ski Bum

[Fjd]

 

Nice post, Craig, lot to agree with there.  I would say that if the goal is to use your tube amp as some sort of ear-friendly compressor, then the little single ended jobs' monotonic distortion pattern beats the odd predominant pattern of pp amps.  It seems to me that 2Bmusic wants more tube coloration, as opposed to your "bigger window" approach that yields less tube coloration, which seems to reflect his tube dabbling thus far. 

 

In full disclosure  I am looking for the best sound possible. The means to get there is unknown to me at this time.  Maybe I have arrived. AS you know I had a P/P 25 watt EL84 mono block set up. It sound a smidgen better than the yammy 1030... but only on a very few songs. 3 days and 3 sets of ears could not tell one from the other. 

 

1. I have no idea who else sells tubes or SS that I could try other than the Pass30.8.   Six moons review of that amp simply said  ( in my words here) the 30.8 is over the top good.   And that was against mega buck tube and SS Power AMPS.

 

Like the review I linked to above, and my electronics background,  prove that listening at 1 watt you need at least 20 more to pull from during dynamic passes. 

 

I am not up to building anything. Mike Sanders of QS fame and Nelson Pass are far more accomplished than I in that realm.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a 30 watt SS amp playing at one 1 watt.   With out question some music will dig into the 25 watt mark. That is the reason for that pass 30.8

 

At Best buy they have $50,000 worth of Mac amp preamp etc playing into $15,000  martin logans.  Horrible compared to my khorns.

When my K horns were puiing 1 watt the ML's were pulling 75. Point is the 30.8 power wise is certainly not to much power. If I never use the last 5 or so watts, all the better. The more power you pull from any amp, the more distortion it makes.  I love my horns because they address the issue of efficiency.  The Folded Bass is a wonder of the universe. ( there may be others, but they will cost way WAY more than what I paid for these 20+ yr old Khorns. 

 

I do not want or need to spend ~4 Large on a used 30.8.  But if the sound is way better, then that is good. Same thing goes for tubes.  I would try A&S casablancas but once you buy they are yours.   NOT going to happen for me. 

 

 

 

I would posit to say, your definition of the sound you are looking for is not specific enough.  "I am looking for the best sound possible” is a purely subjective call and if you interview 15 people and ask them to specifically describe “best sound” and what it means to them, you will probably get 15 very different answers.

 

For example, some people look specifically to measurements as an “objective” tool to help them determine “accuracy,” which may be an important aspect of their “best sound.”  However, “accurate” to what benchmark?  Are we looking for accuracy when compared to the original studio session, accuracy in relation to the engineer’s mix, accuracy in reproducing “compression,” accurate in reproducing the tone or timbre of certain instruments, or accurate in that a Fender Stratocaster doesn’t sound like a poorly tuned banjo, or something else? 

 

Also, if audio gear is “too accurate” it will reveal every flaw in the recording itself and every flaw in the audio gear chain.  Given “human nature” being what it is, people then tend to jump to unfounded conclusions that it must be the “amplifier” or the “speaker” (in general, people have been notorious for blaming the Klipsch speaker for poor recordings and poor choices in audio gear), which in turn, tends to impact the sales levels of the item.

 

Others would claim that more bass, more punch, and more excitement from playing music is the “best sound.”   Given the state of over-compression in music, the most accurate gear is not necessarily the best in playing heavily processed rock music and expecting more bass and more punch.  Think of it this way, sometimes, a person just can’t make a cartoon look real by using a high resolution television.

 

Some claim that a nice crisp high frequency is what they look for as being instrumental in the best sound, while others believe that the crisp high frequency makes for an etched and mechanical listening experience.

 

In general, I believe that most manufacturers (especially those making mass-produced products) will go to extraordinary lengths to “claim” accuracy, to give consumers some level of “assurance” they are buying products that are accurate since the general consumer wouldn’t want their friends questioning them on why they bought an “inaccurate” stereo system (whatever that actually means).    

 

Personally, I’ve put together various systems to meet different listening objectives.  For example, I’ve tailored a system for the bedroom that will create a surreal, lush and romantic tonal experience for my girlfriend rather than have an “accurate” system playing poor recordings, piercing her ear drums to the point where she has a headache and killing the mood. 

 

Another system involves my Klipschorns and is designed around a very detailed and highly resolving system of very minor details that are captured in good recordings where the criteria of very low noise and very low distortion levels using equipment with very linear circuits that need either none, or very little negative feedback. This system is my "evolution" system for experimentation where I swap various tube and solid state based components in an out of this system.  My Jubilees are in another fairly resolving system that will probably also end up doing home theater duties, in addition to the two channel listening when I move to a bigger space.

 

These are extremes on the continuum for me, but I have also put together other more general systems that fall somewhere in the middle of my continuum for general listening, general entertaining and occasional parties.