maybe tubes are not that great? I do not know! HELP!

[2Bmusic]

Dave, you may also want to give Steve Deckert a call and talk to him about your amp needs/concerns.  His company offers a 30 day in-home trial:

 

http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html

 

Are you sure you don't want to try a kit build?  This one has been around for quite a while and is supposed to be very good.  And, it certainly opens up an avenue for modification with different output xfmrs, etc.:

 

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/K-502

 

 

Maynard

Thanks for that Maynard.  BUT this begs the question. What with all the care Mike Sanders at Quicksilver  put into the Horn mono's, and the HUGH HUGH out put transformer, I doubt VERY SERIOUSLY that the kit amp will sound any better. Also 8 watts is about 22 less that what PWK thought would be a sufficient power...... DONT YOU THINK?

AND like I said the HORN MONOS did sound better than the F6 and a small bit better than the Yamaha 1030. But not worth the cost. 

IN fact with the TT now spinning the system sounds the best yet.   BUT I FORGOT what a PITA records are!   lol

 

What do you think?

[2Bmusic]

Which Decware amp would be best for the khorns... i am leaning to the ZMA

[oldtimer]

I submit your thread title says it all.

[2Bmusic]

I submit your thread title says it all.

care to elaborate?

Do you mean to infer that SS is your preferred prescription?

Edited April 10, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[tube fanatic]

Dave, regarding the Decware amps, it would be difficult for me to make recommendations since I don't have direct experience with his recent offerings.  That's why I suggested calling Steve and discussing your goals with him.  As to the kit amp, I certainly don't expect it to rival the Quicksilvers.  However, it will allow you to play around with circuit changes to find the sound that is most pleasing.  Output transformers can certainly exert a profound influence on the sound, and many guys find that even changing between brands of coupling/bypass caps can make a big difference.  In addition, you can modify circuit parameters, like bias or plate voltage, to operate the tubes at different points  which will also change the sound.  I believe there are many online discussions about this amp in which you may find useful suggestions.  Once you have that established as your reference, you can then seek either a commercial product which can duplicate that sound, or possibly consider building your own higher power amp. 

 

Maynard

[DizRotus]

Do you mean to infer that SS is your preferred prescription?

 

I infer that Oldtimer is implying that your thread title implies a preference for solid state.

Edited April 10, 2016 by DizRotus

[2Bmusic]

 

Do you mean to infer that SS is your preferred prescription?

 

I infer that Oldtimer is implying that your thread title implies a preference for solid state.

 

Actually NO Preference  here. Tubes or SS, which ever way results in sound as close to original or even colored in such a way that makes listening for long periods of time unforgettable!   After asking about speaker mods, I think the VOLTI upgrade kit is where the money should be spent first.  Specially in the light that I have tried the amps I have mentioned here!

[DizRotus]

FWIW,

My tube days are over. While I understand the appeal, at my age, I much prefer the simplicity of solid state. For two channel I use a restored H/K x30 (h/k 630 or h/k730) receiver or a "Wiener" TDA3118 amp in balanced mode fed by my Pono player. This forum's Rhing put me on to it (see https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/144613-chip-amps-almost-everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know/page-10).  They rival my former tube amps without the heat or maintenance. 

While, IMO, the music is always more important than the hardware, it's a hobby, it should occupy time in a pleasant and satisfying manner.

The beauty of high efficiency speakers is their ability to utilize low wattage and low distortion amps, whether valve or solid.

Edited April 10, 2016 by DizRotus

[Fjd]

 

with regard to the above statements.  I say this with humility and hope for finding the truth...

 

I played Bella Flecks "FLIGHT OF THE COSMIC HIPPO".   This work will tax all equipment that tries to reproduce it.  In playing that music I can tell you with full certainty the following: 

 

When I say best sound possible, I am taking about music that sounds as close to original as possible.

 

My big ben 4 ~6 watt SET did not have enough to power to reproduce bass notes as well as a 25 watt p/p amp.  This makes sense big time.

 

........ the Khorn with its incredible dynamic range will "most likely"  ( maybe---- maybe not)  perform best with bi-amp.  

 

An SET for top side and SS for lows.....  or some equipment similar.   As for how this will sound, one would have to try it and see. 

 

         *****    THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD******

 WITH REGARD TO All the above talk about this and that.  WELL it is important to compare apples to apples.  What I mean is that one should take one song that has the full spectrum of frequencies ( 20 hertz to 20,000 hertz).  This song should be played through all equipment in question.  Why because audio engineers will vary settings as recording or mastering is being done.    DOESN'T it make sense to compare you know values? 

 

 

 

Agreed, that a comparison on an "apple to apple" basis appears to make sense and stress both amplifiers in relation to how you like to listen in order to evaluate how they perform in relation to your listening habits.  However, this information now begs the question regarding how precise did you match the gain of each amplifier in your comparison?  

 

In my experience, some people tend to forget about "level matching" or "gain matching" when comparing amplifiers.  Even very slight differences in gain between amplifiers can be audible as I have found that precise level matching can be more critical than most even realize.  In certain situations a 1 dB difference can change a person's perception of an amplifier. 

 

In general, when gain levels are different, it seems that many will tend to conclude that louder music, even if it's just slightly louder, will almost always sounds better to them than the quieter music. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My big ben 4 ~6 watt SET did not have enough to power to reproduce bass notes as well as a 25 watt p/p amp.   

 

 

The curiosity is killing me. What is this 25 watt push pull EL84 amplifier? 

 

 

In case you did not get it from what I wrote previously, Quick Silver horn mono's.   TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR...they sounded great. but $2,000  better than the yamaha rx A1030... not so much. If I did not have the yammy 1030, the horn mono's are keepers! 

 

AND the fact that I have the Yamaha RX 1030 is accidental.   I had been wanting a Macintosh or Pass amp.  I never thought I would have the money to buy one,  and in fact did not ( at the time) .  BUT i needed an amp.  I looked on CL and this 1030 which I knew nothing about was for sale brand new used less than a week.  I offered the guy $400 and he took it. I connected it to my ( new to me) lascalas and it sounded good.  Thinking that tubes would sound better I saved up and bought the Big Ben.   Since that is a buy it and you keep it, I kept it. Although it sounded a small bit better than the 1030, again it was not worth the money as far as sound improvement goes.

 

Then, 2 yrs later, I got to listen to khorns. I was blown away by the improvement!   BUT NOW the BB 6 watt SET just was not enough for the BASS when comparing to the yamaha 1030.   So now you know the rest of the story.

 

 

This thread lost me. Do you still have the Quicksilvers? If so, what 12DW7/7247 and power tubes are you using? Your preamp may not be optimal for the Mono's and that may be why the 1030 sounds good....the preamp section is matched to the power section. I have found, over the years, that a preamp and amp from the same manufacturer is they way to go. However, there are always exceptions.

 

 

 

FloridaBoy makes an excellent point and it ties into the question I had asked earlier about gain matching the comparison amplifiers.

 

Please keep in mind that the Quicksilver Horn Mono Amplifier has approximately 18dB less gain than Quicksilver's standard amplifier.  I could not find specifications on the Yamaha 1030; however, I suspect that AVR receivers probably have higher gain figures and lower input voltages to achieve full power vs. the Quicksilver mono amplifier or tube amplifiers in general, which is one reason why I asked how you did your gain matching.

 

I tried to find the output voltage of the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 and I believe this may be the first time I've seen a DAC that doesn't list its output voltage and impedance on its specifications page.  

 

I know that it is promoted as double duty as a preamplifier and these types of basic specifications are important in understanding the voltage gain of the preamplifier portion of the unit; however, maybe the primary purposes is DAC/Headphone amplifier since there appears to be plenty of headphone output data.

 

For example, the XDA-1 specifications show a nominal output voltage of 1V RMS (balance output is more), for which 1V RMS would not be sufficient to drive the Quicksilver horn mono amplifiers to the full potential.  While the Quicksilver horn mono amplifier has a nice input impedance of 100 Kohms, the Quicksilver horn mono amplifier has an input sensitivity of 6V. 

 

Also, did you use the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 with the Yamaha internal amplifier section (probably not the mismatch to the degree I suspect with the tube amplifiers) or the Yamaha internal preamplifier with the Yamaha internal amplifier (where you would have no mismatch)? 

[oldtimer]

Tubes or SS, which ever way results in sound as close to original or even colored in such a way that makes listening for long periods of time unforgettable!

 

Thus your conundrum.  Accuracy, or coloration that tickles your synapses.  It comes down to one or the other.  I wish you well for your quest, and hope you figure out what is best for you.  There are ways to have both, but not with an amp alone lol.

[2Bmusic]

FJD, I am not sure I understand. Maybe we could talk on the phone?

[Lemon string]

i"ve been following this thread and don't really understand the issue I guess. I have a 12 w SET amp that is class A. In my room it sounds fantastic. It powers a modified pair of Cornwalls, Cornwall II's originally, with EASE. It will play as loud as one could possibly want, with a completely natural sound and extremely clean and clear.

 

I originally started off with a Yamaha AVR, then a adcom GFA 5235 (design by Mr nelson Pass) with a emotiva UMC 200. All I can say is in my room the the 12 w SET amp is the hands down winner, no contest. Im actually shocked to see that there is a question about accuracy with a SET amp. Pretty amusing. The SS amps in my room were veiled and lacked a natural presence, air, separation of instruments and lacked the strong holographic phantom center channel. Clean pure power seems to me to be the most important issue. Theres always a lot of talk about head room in these discussions but Khorns have a efficiency  of 106db, with a 20w amp you've got a ton of head room.  

 

Good luck chasing the ever elusive audio dragon.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Lemon string

[mike stehr]

What sort of 12 watt SET amplifier do you have?

Edited April 11, 2016 by mike stehr

[Ski Bum]

FJD, I am not sure I understand.

 

 

2B, he's noting that your Emo Stealth DAC/pre may lack sufficient output voltage to drive QS Monos to full power, and if that's so, you never heard what they're fully capable of.  Note the lack of disclosure of the output voltage on the Stealth DAC (bizarre oversight for a product marketed as a pre-amp).  The Stealth was most likely designed to feed a high gain amp like Emo makes (they typically require <1v for full output).

 

The fellow from QS who "helped" you should have let you know that the QS Horn Monos require that.  That he didn't verify compatibility with your existing kit makes me think he prioritizes a sale over your satisfaction.  (Such is life in consumerville, and why I prefer DIY over commercial offerings.) 

 

You've already returned the QS Monos, correct?  

Edited April 11, 2016 by Ski Bum

[NOSValves]

with regard to the above statements. I say this with humility and hope for finding the truth...

I played Bella Flecks "FLIGHT OF THE COSMIC HIPPO". This work will tax all equipment that tries to reproduce it. In playing that music I can tell you with full certainty the following:

When I say best sound possible, I am taking about music that sounds as close to original as possible.

My big ben 4 ~6 watt SET did not have enough to power to reproduce bass notes as well as a 25 watt p/p amp. This makes sense big time.

........ the Khorn with its incredible dynamic range will "most likely" ( maybe---- maybe not) perform best with bi-amp.

An SET for top side and SS for lows..... or some equipment similar. As for how this will sound, one would have to try it and see.

***** THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD******

WITH REGARD TO All the above talk about this and that. WELL it is important to compare apples to apples. What I mean is that one should take one song that has the full spectrum of frequencies ( 20 hertz to 20,000 hertz). This song should be played through all equipment in question. Why because audio engineers will vary settings as recording or mastering is being done. DOESN'T it make sense to compare you know values?

Agreed, that a comparison on an "apple to apple" basis appears to make sense and stress both amplifiers in relation to how you like to listen in order to evaluate how they perform in relation to your listening habits. However, this information now begs the question regarding how precise did you match the gain of each amplifier in your comparison?

In my experience, some people tend to forget about "level matching" or "gain matching" when comparing amplifiers. Even very slight differences in gain between amplifiers can be audible as I have found that precise level matching can be more critical than most even realize. In certain situations a 1 dB difference can change a person's perception of an amplifier.

In general, when gain levels are different, it seems that many will tend to conclude that louder music, even if it's just slightly louder, will almost always sounds better to them than the quieter music.

My big ben 4 ~6 watt SET did not have enough to power to reproduce bass notes as well as a 25 watt p/p amp.

The curiosity is killing me. What is this 25 watt push pull EL84 amplifier?

In case you did not get it from what I wrote previously, Quick Silver horn mono's. TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR...they sounded great. but $2,000 better than the yamaha rx A1030... not so much. If I did not have the yammy 1030, the horn mono's are keepers!

AND the fact that I have the Yamaha RX 1030 is accidental. I had been wanting a Macintosh or Pass amp. I never thought I would have the money to buy one, and in fact did not ( at the time) . BUT i needed an amp. I looked on CL and this 1030 which I knew nothing about was for sale brand new used less than a week. I offered the guy $400 and he took it. I connected it to my ( new to me) lascalas and it sounded good. Thinking that tubes would sound better I saved up and bought the Big Ben. Since that is a buy it and you keep it, I kept it. Although it sounded a small bit better than the 1030, again it was not worth the money as far as sound improvement goes.

Then, 2 yrs later, I got to listen to khorns. I was blown away by the improvement! BUT NOW the BB 6 watt SET just was not enough for the BASS when comparing to the yamaha 1030. So now you know the rest of the story.

This thread lost me. Do you still have the Quicksilvers? If so, what 12DW7/7247 and power tubes are you using? Your preamp may not be optimal for the Mono's and that may be why the 1030 sounds good....the preamp section is matched to the power section. I have found, over the years, that a preamp and amp from the same manufacturer is they way to go. However, there are always exceptions.

FloridaBoy makes an excellent point and it ties into the question I had asked earlier about gain matching the comparison amplifiers.

Please keep in mind that the Quicksilver Horn Mono Amplifier has approximately 18dB less gain than Quicksilver's standard amplifier. I could not find specifications on the Yamaha 1030; however, I suspect that AVR receivers probably have higher gain figures and lower input voltages to achieve full power vs. the Quicksilver mono amplifier or tube amplifiers in general, which is one reason why I asked how you did your gain matching.

I tried to find the output voltage of the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 and I believe this may be the first time I've seen a DAC that doesn't list its output voltage and impedance on its specifications page.

I know that it is promoted as double duty as a preamplifier and these types of basic specifications are important in understanding the voltage gain of the preamplifier portion of the unit; however, maybe the primary purposes is DAC/Headphone amplifier since there appears to be plenty of headphone output data.

For example, the XDA-1 specifications show a nominal output voltage of 1V RMS (balance output is more), for which 1V RMS would not be sufficient to drive the Quicksilver horn mono amplifiers to the full potential. While the Quicksilver horn mono amplifier has a nice input impedance of 100 Kohms, the Quicksilver horn mono amplifier has an input sensitivity of 6V.

Also, did you use the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 with the Yamaha internal amplifier section (probably not the mismatch to the degree I suspect with the tube amplifiers) or the Yamaha internal preamplifier with the Yamaha internal amplifier (where you would have no mismatch)?

Good call I bet he couldn't 5 watts out of the QS amplifier. I've always got a chuckle out of that design trick...make an amplifier a rediculus 6VAC to full power and than brag how quiet it is....nuts...no accomplishment in that at all...

[2Bmusic]

 

FJD, I am not sure I understand.

 

 

2B, he's noting that your Emo Stealth DAC/pre may lack sufficient output voltage to drive QS Monos to full power, and if that's so, you never heard what they're fully capable of.  Note the lack of disclosure of the output voltage on the Stealth DAC (bizarre oversight for a product marketed as a pre-amp).  The Stealth was most likely designed to feed a high gain amp like Emo makes (they typically require <1v for full output).

 

The fellow from QS who "helped" you should have let you know that the QS Horn Monos require that.  That he didn't verify compatibility with your existing kit makes me think he prioritizes a sale over your satisfaction.  (Such is life in consumerville, and why I prefer DIY over commercial offerings.) 

 

You've already returned the QS Monos, correct?  

 

 Yes they will arrive at QS today. I would have like to have kept them longer. But I only had a short time to demo and then return. I think demo's should be 30 days.  I lost five days ( demo time)  because I had to go out of town for a week. It was painful to know they were waiting for me, but I was 400 miles from the people I know.

 

As to the references about preamp out put voltages etc. I found this. http://emotiva.com/resources/media/DC1_AP_Report.pdf

I think it makes enough out put to drive any amp sufficiently to get to 1 or 2 watts.  I usually listen at SPL of max of 90 but lower 80's for the most part. I sit 12 feet from speakers ....so anyway.    I would like to know if a tube preamp would do better.  I guess the only way to know is to try one. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[2Bmusic]

Hey Folks,

I got to talk to Greg at Volti. What an amazing wealth of knowledge when it comes to our beloved Khorns.

I will be buying his full upgrade in a few months.   That way  unknowns as well as knowns that cause a perturbation in the sound will be ameliorated as best as possible.

 

Once that is done I will resume testing amps.

The ones on my list will be:

First Watt F7

Pass 30.8

Decware ZMA

and amp and preamp from QS if he will allow. 

 

also If Justin Weber will allow for demo, I would pay for shipping both ways, if I do not buy,  and a $50.00 handling fee to try his Casablanca's

 

maybe others.... stay tuned!

Edited April 11, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[2Bmusic]

in case any one is interested  RX A1030 specs and more. I had no idea it was this good.  Not a F7 or 30.8 or $25,000 tube amp, but it seems to get the job done to the 95% level.  And to think I paid $400.00 for it.  Not to shabby...

 

 http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/rx-a1030_black_u/

Edited April 11, 2016 by 2Bmusic

[paul79]

Hey Folks,

I got to talk to Greg at Volti. What an amazing wealth of knowledge when it comes to our beloved Khorns.

I will be buying his full upgrade in a few months.   That way  unknowns as well as knowns that cause a perturbation in the sound will be ameliorated as best as possible.

 

Once that is done I will resume testing amps.

The ones on my list will be:

First Watt F7

Pass 30.8

Decware ZMA

and amp and preamp from QS if he will allow. 

 

also If Justin Weber will allow for demo, I would pay for shipping both ways, if I do not buy,  and a $50.00 handling fee to try his Casablanca's

 

maybe others.... stay tuned!

Volti has paired with Border Patrol and the Rossi Lio at shows...

[Lemon string]

I may have shared this link previously so excuse my being redundant but for those that missed it I think its a good read in light of this thread. 

 

http://www.trueaudiophile.com/phony-watts/

 

I have two amps from the manufacture that wrote this, Audion. I have their Sterling EL34 and Sterling KT88 amps. The 12w EL34 drives my CW II's and the KT88 is on a pair of Fortes at my office. I love both of them but favor the EL34. With both of these amps I run a passive pre. The amps requires very little input and are dead quiet. All of there amps are class A power. 

 

I should mention, by coincidence, that shortly after I bought my first Sterling, the EL34, i noticed that Klipsch and Audion held an event in Lonon demoing the heritage line of speakers with audion amps one weekend last year. I never saw any coverage on the event but it made me feel good about my purchase knowing that both manufactures thought there was a synergy between the products and thought highly of one another.  

 

cheers and as always may you be victorious in chasing and slaying the ever elusive audio dragon