jason str Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 You are right. I do not like the room shaking. I like a tight base that can be felt on one's stomach. Some of the tightest drivers out there are 18's. Put them in a sealed box and they're really tight. Compare multiple sealed 18's with lots of overhead to a typical factory built ported 15 or two, and the 18's are going to win in pretty much every way. No, not true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) It depends. Sealed can benefit from cabin gain where ported cannot. Of coarse, horn loaded subs can benefit from the cabin gain as well as long as the driver enclosure is not opened. Still, hit in chest bass at the frequencies Carl is talking about come from pro horn subs easily. They aren't pretty, but you can most definitely feel them. Edited May 14, 2016 by mustang guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Its all in the driver compliment and cabinet tuning. Sure an 18 can move more air but to say its tighter or better in any way is just wrong and misleading. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) Big sealed cabs with big drivers and lots of mass and excursion are the key. Efficient they are not... but air they can indeed move. Oh, and tuning by adding mass to cone btw... Edited May 14, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) Its all in the driver compliment and cabinet tuning. Sure an 18 can move more air but to say its tighter or better in any way is just wrong and misleading. The term subs are tight, slow, faster ect. is just not quite right. You can have all these I guess, attributes if the diver, motor and box size are right. What some people call tight or fast, comes down to lack of extension in some cases. Edited May 14, 2016 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 You can get a compromise of a combination of everything but never everything in one package. Motor strength means nothing on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) First of all let's consider that we're talking about home theater subs here that are tuned pretty low, as they should be, and keep things applicable to this application. At the frequencies in question within this conversation, which is the solar-plexus whapping kick drum sound that is centered around 63 hz, being nearly two octaves higher than the tuning frequency, you get virtually none of the benefits of a ported sub. You do however get the negative aspects. You can get midrange artifacts, harmonics, and ringing coming through the port, which is why nearly all decent towers are ported in the rear. You don't get any absorption of the back wave from stuffing, and most importantly, you have measurably higher group delay, which is why sealed is _usually_ going to sound tighter. Edited May 14, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) What some people call tight or fast, comes down to lack of extension in some cases. I'm not sure I equate the two, people who talk about being fast are generally concerned with the attack of a driver. Being tight is being concerned with what happens acoustically after the electrical signal stops. Generally speaking yes I agree, but its the high extension and not the low. A woofer that is reproducing some midrange frequencies or a sub that is properly integrated with the mains is going to sound like what most people call fast. I'm specifically thinking of double kick drums though. Some subs can turn them to mush. Others can minimize any perceived overhang. I'll take the latter. Edited May 14, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Low tuned home theater subs are fine and all if that is what you are looking for but if your mains roll off at a high frequency and your subwoofer turns to mush you end up with a mismatched sounding crossover from mains to subs, this to me is most important out of everything. A properly built ported sub will not sound any worse or better than a sealed one. If distortion bothers you build a horn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 God hear we go again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 God hear we go again. We are on a Klipsch forum, if you don't like horns... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 yeah but you and cory are always going back and forth about the multiple 18's vs a single horn. it just gets old. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Every design has pros and cons, i prefer horns and like to talk about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 We are on a Klipsch forum, if you don't like horns... That gets said a lot, except they don't even make a home theater sub that's a horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 yeah but you and cory are always going back and forth about the multiple 18's vs a single horn. it just gets old. Sealed vs. ported was a welcome change, but yeah sooner or later it's going to turn into a 15" horn sub conversation. Cuz Klipsch, or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 The OP was looking for a sub for music originally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 We are on a Klipsch forum, if you don't like horns... That gets said a lot, except they don't even make a home theater sub that's a horn. Lots of options out there. yeah but you and cory are always going back and forth about the multiple 18's vs a single horn. it just gets old. Sealed vs. ported was a welcome change, but yeah sooner or later it's going to turn into a 15" horn sub conversation. Cuz Klipsch, or something. Cuz its a good option. Feel free to start a new thread or post on an old one, never gets old to me but lets not throw this post off track any more than it already is in respest to the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 All I said was that sealed 18's can be stupid tight on music since he was questioning people's sanity for getting them as well as their ability to reproduce chest thumping tight bass. Doesn't make any sense to dismiss 18's in this manner. A typical factory ported 15" is simply not going to be superior in this regard as he assumed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) As far as, group delay, in large low tuned subs it is a non- issue for the most part since it is near tuning. Most music is happening well above this group delay. As Jason said, a well design ported sub can sound as nice as a sealed sub for music. Edited May 14, 2016 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) Since we are talking about music that needs a good midbass punch for the kick drum, drivers can make a difference. The graph shows the UM 18 blue, HST 18 black, PA 460 green and Magnum 12 red. Look at what is going on above 60 Hz. The large HT drivers win the ULF department but, the pro type drivers perform better above 65 Hz. On the second graph showing impedance peaks, the UM and HST peak in the 40 Hz range compared to the pro drivers in the 70 Hz range. What this means is that the HT driver are in a sense straining a bit in the midbass range. Inductance goes up which is kinda like putting on the brakes on the driver. This does not happen until much higher up with the pro type driver. In the midbass region the pro type diver has greater sensitivity and is operating in it's comfort zone in the mid bass region. As Jason said there are always trade-off with any subwoofer. A horn driver is more like the pro driver and that may be one factor why so many people love them for music. Picking your goal is key to designing the right bass system for your application. Some people want to feel the vibrations thru their body in HT and may like something good at midbass. Others may want the seats shaking and things falling off walls, pick your poison. Mid bass modules are becoming trendy! Edited May 14, 2016 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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