Rxonmymind Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 I've looked at both ALK & Crites crossovers and have to thank both for their patience & professionalism in answering my emails. For someone who has zero knowledge of crossovers & electronics the questions coming from me can be elementary. Anyway, has anyone ever replaced the crossovers in a Klipsch with the EXACT same oil & paper cans(?) that are in the AA? Are they still available? I've read somewhere that they make a copper/oil ones for tube fans. Some of the downside of these is the tolerances can vary wildly with two cans made from the same mfg? Their expensive.$30+ each? Hard to find? The reason I ask is I REALLY like the sound they produce right now and hate to change them too drastically. I'm hesitating to pull the trigger as I've listened to a receiver (Yamaha RX 777) that had every top grade caps from Elna silm II, nichi etc..and was VERY bright sounding. I don't want this happening on the speakers with metal, mylar or any other caps. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Ack! I disagree. Metalized polypropylene is metalized polypropylene, and it doesn't matter if it's in oil or not. The sonic signature is much more forward than a paper in oil or Mylar in oil. The ESR on some of those Russian capacitors is almost as bad as the old ones he currently has on his boards. I would stay away, since you just don't know what you're getting. It's just not "a name on a cap". Jensen paper in oils involve some hand assembly. I think they sound fantastic, maintaining the original sonic signature of the loudspeaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Sigh. Learned a lot in this thread. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/49704-what-makes-a-capacitor-sound-better/ Unfortunately the Jensen are to expensive upfront & other caps do just as well. Love to have me some Jensen though. Thanks for the input. Edited June 29, 2016 by Rxonmymind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 It does cost some coin, but we're talking about the interface between your downstream components and your drivers - everything is "filtered" through the crossover. People pay crazy amounts of money on their other gear, but then want to spend the least they can on this critical part of the system. Jensens can be purchased through www.partsconnexion.com It's an easy build. You'll need four 2.2uF/100Vdc and two 12uF/100Vdc for the rebuild. You're looking at $425 and a relatively easy rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 What does your budget allow for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) That's about right in the ballpark. Looks nice. I see that's for parts only. JENSEN-62343 QTY ADD 2.2uf / 100VAC • 200VDC, Aluminum Foil, Aluminum Case $42 ea. JENSEN-64002 QTY ADD 12uf / 100VAC • 200VDC, Aluminum Foil, Aluminum Case, 2.2" D ... $132 ea Not sure about the transformer, wires, terminals etc. Edited June 29, 2016 by Rxonmymind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 Not looking for extreme slopes or absolute separation of speakers at this time. I'd like to attempt to get it back to original as possible. Oil filled & go from there. That way it'll give me as close of a baseline as possible then perhaps down the road use extreme slopes or go fully active. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 My problem is that when it comes to XO components, I am a 100% believer in whatever was the last article/post I read. That's why I am a believer in expert opinions because they have already done the R&D. There seems to be no need for me to reinvent the wheel. The only problem I have with that approach is that the person giving us the wisdom might have a preference for a certain sound and maybe I am looking for something else. For instance I like and know very well what a brass instrument is supposed to sound like, and to get that sound you really have to have a "forward" or "bright" sound. "Smooth" might not be the best sound for me, I dunno. Speaking for myself I think I am driving myself crazy splitting hairs in sound and chasing windmills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Well, first off, if your speakers are sounding good, leave them alone. The original caps appear to deteriorate fastest when not used, but hang on pretty good if used regularly. I do recommend removing one of the KLiP circuit diodes to defeat that system, assuming you can control your throttle hand and have K-77-Ms. The diodes chop off the HF waveform around 2 watts, while the tweeters can safely absorb 10 watts long term. It will remove some "hash" at higher volumes. Second, the crossover design influences the caps and inductors chosen. Eg., the Type AA's tweeter section uses a pair of lossy caps, in an unusual filter design that generates a small peak at the crossover point, a sag in the middle and rising, but attenuated response up high, to smooth a hump in the K-77's response and match a 105 dB tweeter to a 104-ish dB system. Modern film and foil caps in a more typical Butterworth filter would let the tweeter put out more energy (as much as 3 dB, from memory) in the 7k to 10k range and make the system unpleasant to me. Mr. Paul was a good engineer. That is why I sold my ALKs. As much as I liked the marked improvement in clarity, especially in the middle, the tweeters were too hot. Plus, the first Klipsch I ever heard were late 70s models with Type AA networks, so romantic, or audible, I prefer that sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Thanks. That's the thing the tweeters in these Belle's are not fatiguing. I have listened to these for hours on straight without issue. I have the Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary model to compare to upstairs and their more than holding their own against them. Truly impressed with these Belle's. Edited June 29, 2016 by Rxonmymind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Dean pm me if you can...or maybe not. Thanks for the direction on the rebuild. Maybe I can find someone to do it. Appreciate the link. Edited June 29, 2016 by Rxonmymind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 29, 2016 Moderators Share Posted June 29, 2016 I would vote definitely change the capacitors, I had some old AA's that started leaking, I thought they were still sounding good. Replaced the caps only and the difference was very surprising, anyone could easily hear the difference, I was quite surprised. A friend updated them, I have no idea what he used, I was going to do it but not sure of my soldering skills. To me it sounded overall better, better tighter bass and the mid and highs were cleaner with better detail. Before and after 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Fortunately mine are not leaking. They look really good & shiny. No rust on the cans. But I would like to do an A/B comparison with new crossovers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) My problem is that when it comes to XO components, I am a 100% believer in whatever was the last article/post I read. That's why I am a believer in expert opinions because they have already done the R&D. There seems to be no need for me to reinvent the wheel. The only problem I have with that approach is that the person giving us the wisdom might have a preference for a certain sound and maybe I am looking for something else. For instance I like and know very well what a brass instrument is supposed to sound like, and to get that sound you really have to have a "forward" or "bright" sound. "Smooth" might not be the best sound for me, I dunno. Speaking for myself I think I am driving myself crazy splitting hairs in sound and chasing windmills. Haha. I know exactly where you're coming from. It's difficult to sift through the many options. However I'm fortunate to have come from Mobile Audio and know somewhat what I'm looking for but difficult to quantify. The Crossovers for from ALK look a lot like Focal speakers or any modern-day crossover. I'd really like to go with Pio to keep the comparisons the same as possible.Eventually I will try ALK and Bob Crites crossovers. Love their build quality. As for your preference on the sound of brass instruments perhaps if you can afford it go with 2-way bookshelf speakers with the little subwoofer. The Focal speakers with their beryllium tweeter is just absolutely awesome for brass instruments. Thus you can have modern day speakers and vintage while enjoying both. That'll save you time, expense, aggravation and mental gymnastics of going through three different crossovers. Besides in trying to obtain "that" sound many will swap out the tweeters, mids and woofers with extreme sloped crossovers then you no longer have the speakers you originally started with. What's the point? They've now become fraken speakers. Edited June 30, 2016 by Rxonmymind 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 30, 2016 Moderators Share Posted June 30, 2016 Besides in trying to obtain "that" sound many will swap out the tweeters, mids and woofers with extreme sloped crossovers then you no longer have the speakers you originally started with. What's the point? They've now become fraken speakers. Great point 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) As for your preference on the sound of brass instruments perhaps if you can afford it go with 2-way bookshelf speakers with the little subwoofer. I love the sound of my Klipsch CF-4 (2-way w/dual 12" woofs) and my sealed 15" sub. It's as good as anything I've ever heard, not just because of the accuracy, but because the CF-4 can play at LIVE! levels. Since I have recently acquired the Khorns I simply plugged them in and listened to them. Being unmolested the 1978 Khorns AA crossovers are in need of refreshing, but like most of us here I want just a little more performance if it's the same amount of effort and money. I've heard some specific elements in the sound I would like to improve, specifically in terms of midrange clarity and that "echo chamber" sound.(snip) Besides in trying to obtain "that" sound many ME will swap out the tweeters, mids and woofers with extreme sloped crossovers then you no longer have the speakers you originally started with. What's the point? They've now become fraken speakers. I hear you, my friend. You have me pegged exactly. Edited June 30, 2016 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Besides in trying to obtain "that" sound many will swap out the tweeters, mids and woofers with extreme sloped crossovers then you no longer have the speakers you originally started with. What's the point? They've now become fraken speakers. Great point Yea they don't sound the same they sound BETTER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 30, 2016 Moderators Share Posted June 30, 2016 I have no problem with people making any changes to try to get what they want, but at some point if you have gone far enough away from the original design you have who knows what ? It really comes down to what a person likes or what they think they are hearing. Are there better parts than what is used to build the original design, of course there is, but then you have something new. It never ends, there is always something better, always what if..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rxonmymind Posted July 1, 2016 Author Share Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) Edit. "Deleted" Edited July 1, 2016 by Rxonmymind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 What is "better"? Rock concert levels with less distortion - probably, but that's pretty much it. At low to moderate volume levels, the sound is too recessed and dry. Also, the larger horn forces you to put the tweeter next to the horn in the horizontal position instead of vertical, which screws with the power response (polars). Finally, ESNs have poor transient response. I do like Dave Harris' Trachorn for the Belle, which accepts the original driver - which is so underrated it's ridiculous. The K-55 is a great sounding driver. The Type AA built with paper in oils sounds outstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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