Honeybadger Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 To many times I hear a song on my work radio or in my car that I enjoy. When I get home I play that same song on my 2 channel system and sounds awful. Aqualung - sounds raspy on my Cornscala's HB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Hypothesis: your home system is more revealing. Your work radio and car system are less accurate and veil the sound. The sound on the Aqualung disk may be raspy, but your car system and work radio hide that. Many pop, rock, and metal disks are doctored up to sound good on bad systems. See Chris A's many posts on Audacity remastering in the home to counteract that. I don't have examples to add to the list because I've given up listening to the car radio, because I might be tempted to buy the CD and find that it sounds bad at home (also, I can't stand the commercials). . I do enjoy (maybe) 90% of SACDs, DVD-As, and Blu-rays, but far fewer CDs. I don't think it is the nature of the formats that make the difference, but that the engineers and producers are aware that a SACD, DVD-A, or Blu-ray may be played by someone with a good system, who cares about good sound. As to CDs, I remember, about 20 years ago, hearing "The Plow that Broke the Plains" on the radio, buying the disk they played, and finding that it sounded lousy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Aqualung (Jethro Tull) is one of the albums--and songs--that caused me to start unmastering all of my CDs, as Gary pointed out I've been doing. To give you an indication of how significant the problem is with this album, here is a saved unmastering curve that I used about a year and a half ago for the second cut on that album...Cross-Eyed Mary: Note that I'd probably show a slightly different curve if I unmastered it again today, but the magnitude of the EQ corrections, not to mention the amount of clipped peaks restoration, depending on the exact CD version that you own, is severe. If you apply the original mastering curve--the inverse curve to the above unmastering curve--to any track with rock instrumentation, it isn't going to sound very good. In this particular album , I also found that one track has a severely damaged vocal line for a period of time (I can't presently remember which track it is on the album...but it is a later track) that will run you out of the room when it occurs. This cannot be fixed by any means known to me, and should have been re-recorded in the studio (Abbey Road) when it was being mixed on the console at that studio. Recalling other CDs that sound pretty awful as-received: Songs From the Big Chair by Tears for Fears Beatles albums (really strident and odd mastering EQ that's applied) The Who's greatest hits The Rolling Stone's greatest hits Journey's greatest hits The Moody Blues' greatest hits Creedence Clearwater Revival's greatest hits Genesis eponymous album (1983) Selling England by the Pound by Genesis (virtually all Genesis albums are very strident...) 38 Special's greatest hits Bachman-Turner Overdrive's greatest hits The Electric Light Orchestra's greatest hits Supernatural by Carlos Santana Heart's greatest hits American Beauty and Live/Dead by the Grateful Dead Night Moves by Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band I could go on...but you get the picture. The above is just the rock genre but there are many more examples from jazz, movie soundtracks, classical recordings, etc. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Many "greatest hits" albums have been remastered for loudness and are not as good as the original works. Same for reissues of albums. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honeybadger Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 Agree, re-mastered albums are often crap. For instance, I have a MFSL Crime of the Century l LP that sounds phenomenal but the CD counter part is rather lifeless, the same goes for my Dire Straits Lp's. It's sad that mastering makes things worse. HB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 I find that the mastering EQ used changes very little between "remasters" and "original releases" on CD and phonograph records. However, use of compression and clipping ("limiting") varies a great deal between releases. I usually buy the CD versions with the highest DR values, usually the cheapest and oldest versions that you can find on Amazon Marketplace from third party sellers for $0.01 + $3.99 shipping, then unmaster them, i.e., restore as close to the recorded or down-mix version as is possible before mastering EQ was applied. The results are usually fairly spectacular. For the "greatest hits" CDs that I mentioned above: note that the artists identified above largely don't have high DR versions that exceed the compilation albums, so I usually buy the greatest hits compilations to save time. If I later find that I start listening to these compilations a great deal after unmastering, I usually start buying the original studio recordings, and occasionally some live-recorded albums. For most of the artists that I identified just above, I find that I don't listen to them a great deal--with the possible exception of the Beatles, which my significant other likes a great deal (I like to listening to some of the later studio albums starting with Revolver). These old Beatles recordings respond extremely well to unmastering and are quite nice to listen to. The George Martin string arrangements (called "baroque pop" nowadays) actually sound like strings--cellos, violas and some violins--for the very first time, and are very pleasant to hear without their mastering EQ. I highly recommend trying your hand at unmastering these Beatles recordings, since they have been compressed quite a bit anyway. I've found that every little bit of improvement helps in listening pleasure a great deal. But be prepared to apply significant amounts of EQ to unmaster the Beatles tracks. 15 minutes ago, Honeybadger said: I have a MFSL Crime of the Century l LP that sounds phenomenal but the CD counter part is rather lifeless, the same goes for my Dire Straits Lp's. It's sad that mastering makes things worse. The unmastered MFSL Crime of the Century is one of the best recordings that I own (and it should, since it cost a great deal...I might add). The percussion on this disc is exceptional, and the presentation is quite dynamic and exciting--after unmastering. Here is the DR log file for that disc after unmastering: foobar2000 1.3.11 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2016-10-02 09:14:24 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Supertramp / Crime Of The Century -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR14 -0.30 dB -19.40 dB 5:38 01-School DR15 -0.30 dB -18.01 dB 4:32 02-Bloody Well Right DR15 -0.27 dB -18.59 dB 6:49 03-Hide In Your Shell DR14 -0.10 dB -19.61 dB 6:44 04-Asylum DR12 -0.30 dB -18.45 dB 3:31 05-Dreamer DR13 -0.30 dB -19.09 dB 7:21 06-Rudy DR13 -0.22 dB -20.26 dB 4:05 07-If Everyone Was Listening DR13 -0.30 dB -18.30 dB 5:35 08-Crime Of The Century -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 8 Official DR value: DR14 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 697 kbps Codec: FLAC Chris 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honeybadger Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 11 minutes ago, Chris A said: The unmastered MFSL Crime of the Century is one of the best recordings that I own (and it should, since it cost a great deal...I might add). Yes it did, I got mine sealed about 2 years ago, and I have only played it twice. One time it was played to lay it on to my reel 2 reel. Have you had good success copying LP to digital? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 20 minutes ago, Honeybadger said: Have you had good success copying LP to digital? In general, if I can find an original CD of the album within 1-2 overall DR ratings points of the vinyl (there's a longer story on this subject that's available), I find the CD version always wins...after unmastering. The vinyl version always has distractions that the CD version never has. I've stopped trying to unmaster my records for the time being, at least until I complete all my CDs. I have several records that were never produced on CD that need to be transferred. I know that sounds a bit unbelievable (i.e., the CD version always winning) but it tells a story of the root cause of why most people don't like the CDs: it's 100% due to the mastering EQ used to make them sound louder than the phonograph version. Phonograph versions cannot be made to sound any louder than they already are--and still be playable. That's the main reason why phonograph records are still being listened to by folks that don't try to unmaster anything: it's the best version that's immediately available to them. I CAN attest to that. But when unmastering is applied, the story is different. I'm currently sitting here listening to the unmastered version Martha My Dear from the Beatles White Album, and I have to tell you that it's absolutely spectacular: the horn arrangement on this track really comes to life, as well as the vocals. I wish everyone could hear it. [I can post this track to my access-controlled Google Drive account for those that might want to compare to the version(s) that they already own. It's really unbelievable.] Chris 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaman Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 I think any of the original releases of Led Zeppelin on cd suck. Great music of course but so much horrible tape hiss on the original recordings. The latest remastered offerings however sound much better. Tim 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honeybadger Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 8 hours ago, Chris A said: I know that sounds a bit unbelievable (i.e., the CD version always winning) but it tells a story of the root cause of why most people don't like the CDs: it's 100% due to the mastering EQ used to make them sound louder than the phonograph version. Phonograph versions cannot be made to sound any louder than they already are--and still be playable. That's the main reason why phonograph records are still being listened to by folks that don't try to unmaster anything: it's the best version that's immediately available to them. I CAN attest to that. But when unmastering is applied, the story is different. I would like the hear the un-mastered version of crime of the century. I looked into this a bit today, seems like a lot of work. HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Shoot me a PM. The work really turns out to be learning how to do it without any help. Once someone figures it out, then I think it gets a lot easier and much less time consuming. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanm84 Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Chris-would like to check out the Beatles track you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Send me your google email address or google name in a PM so I can access you to the subdirectory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 5 hours ago, teaman said: I think any of the original releases of Led Zeppelin on cd suck. Great music of course but so much horrible tape hiss on the original recordings. The latest remastered offerings however sound much better. Tim The vinyl doesn't sound too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 22 minutes ago, oldtimer said: The vinyl doesn't sound too bad. There is a pretty good rule of thumb here: if the phonograph record sounds good but the CD doesn't, you can bet the issue is equalization on the CD to increase its loudness (if the CD was produced on or before 1991) and/or limiting/clipping (after 1991)...both of which are reversible. The EQ is fully reversible, and the clipping is effectively reversible to eliminate the odd-order harmonics that were not in the original recording. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Right. The worst offenders are always cd made from recordings originally meant for vinyl. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtmudd Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 On 10/2/2016 at 4:23 AM, Chris A said: Aqualung (Jethro Tull) is one of the albums--and songs--that caused me to start unmastering all of my CDs, as Gary pointed out I've been doing. To give you an indication of how significant the problem is with this album, here is a saved unmastering curve that I used about a year and a half ago for the second cut on that album...Cross-Eyed Mary: Note that I'd probably show a slightly different curve if I unmastered it again today, but the magnitude of the EQ corrections, not to mention the amount of clipped peaks restoration, depending on the exact CD version that you own, is severe. If you apply the original mastering curve--the inverse curve to the above unmastering curve--to any track with rock instrumentation, it isn't going to sound very good. In this particular album , I also found that one track has a severely damaged vocal line for a period of time (I can't presently remember which track it is on the album...but it is a later track) that will run you out of the room when it occurs. This cannot be fixed by any means known to me, and should have been re-recorded in the studio (Abbey Road) when it was being mixed on the console at that studio. Recalling other CDs that sound pretty awful as-received: Songs From the Big Chair by Tears for Fears Beatles albums (really strident and odd mastering EQ that's applied) The Who's greatest hits The Rolling Stone's greatest hits Journey's greatest hits The Moody Blues' greatest hits Creedence Clearwater Revival's greatest hits Genesis eponymous album (1983) Selling England by the Pound by Genesis (virtually all Genesis albums are very strident...) 38 Special's greatest hits Bachman-Turner Overdrive's greatest hits The Electric Light Orchestra's greatest hits Supernatural by Carlos Santana Heart's greatest hits American Beauty and Live/Dead by the Grateful Dead Night Moves by Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band I could go on...but you get the picture. The above is just the rock genre but there are many more examples from jazz, movie soundtracks, classical recordings, etc. Chris Does this include new remastered vinyl ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Snot is running down his nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 1 hour ago, dirtmudd said: Does this include new remastered vinyl ? I don't own any of those, unfortunately. I would hate to guess: I've made assumptions before, and have been proved wrong. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 23 hours ago, oldtimer said: Right. The worst offenders are always cd made from recordings originally meant for vinyl. Or, Greatest Hits compiliations..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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