drum songs?

[hsosdrummer]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 3:49 PM, wvu80 said:

What grip is she learning, traditional or matched grip?  Both seem about equally popular, but I would like to see her learn traditional.  Then if she goes for matched grip it is a very easy transition, but much harder to switch from matched to traditional.

 

I disagree with this in the strongest possible way. To list my bona fides, I've been playing drums since I was 10 years old — that's 54 years. I took lessons from legit teachers for years, practiced for hours and hours, was a music major in high school and college (played in every ensemble possible: concert band, marching band, jazz band, symphony orchestra) and toured with a rock band for 6 years in the 1970s. And I've been playing drums continually ever since then for my own enjoyment.

 

There is absolutely NO reason on Earth that anyone should learn to play drums using traditional grip. None. Traditional grip forces the left hand into an unnatural position and the left wrist into an unnatural movement. (After all, if that grip and movement were superior we'd use it for both hands.) Traditional grip developed during the 18th and 19th centuries strictly to overcome the tilt that a snare drum has when marching with it hanging over your shoulder on a sling. This tilts the drum away from the left hand, which would force the player's left elbow uncomfortably away from the body if they were using matched grip. So this less-than-ideal "traditional" grip developed to allow the drummer to play more comfortably for long periods while marching. Today's marching drum holders place the snare drum perfectly level, so traditional grip is no longer required at all for marching.

 

Traditional grip restricts the power and movement of the left hand. You can't hit as hard and it's more difficult to reach the floor tom(s) on your right side. Traditional grip also makes it almost impossible to properly play cymbal crashes with the left hand. In short, traditional grip places restrictions on drumset technique that matched grip does not.

 

As for the ease of transitioning between traditional grip and matched grip, that depends entirely on how much the drummer practices with each grip. The purpose of practice is to develop the muscle memory that allows a movement to be repeated without conscious thought. Since matched grip works better than traditional grip, I can see no reason why a player should devote extra practice time to learn both left-hand grips when one grip (matched) will allow them to do everything they'll ever need to do on the instrument. Better to devote that extra practice time to becoming even more proficient at the craft: learning odd time signatures, Latin rhythms or multiple-stroke patterns (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 strokes with each hand).

 

I make this case based on personal experience. When I learned how to play drums back in the 60s I was taught to play traditional grip. That's the way I practiced snare drum technique for thousands of hours, so that's the muscle memory I developed. I could (and still can) play a closed roll as smooth as glass (or as Buddy Rich used to say, "so it sounds like tearing a sheet of paper"), an open roll with power, paradiddles, ruffs, ratamacues, you name it. And when I got seriously into rock music I was able to transition my left-hand grip to matched grip relatively easily, as you said. This gave me the power and ease-of-movement I needed when playing loud music 4 hours a night for years and years on a large drumset (11 drums, 9 cymbals, a gong and a set of tubular bells).

 

HOWEVER, in spite of all the hours I spent playing rock music with matched grip I have never been able to duplicate the left-hand skill and finesse that I have when I use traditional grip with my left hand. Why? Because I did not spend the thousands of hours practicing snare drum technique using matched grip that I did using traditional grip when I was younger. Sure, it's possible to play with equal facility using both grips, but not without committing lots of extra practice time and effort. Nothing's free.

 

Nowadays, I’m forced to continually change my left hand between matched grip and traditional grip when playing drumset. “So what’s the problem?”, you might say. The problem goes back to the angle of the snare drum. When using traditional grip it’s more comfortable to play with the snare drum tilted away from you (to accommodate your left hand’s movement — see photo of Buddy Rich, below), but with matched grip it’s more comfortable to play with the snare drum tilted slightly towards you, so you can easily execute rim shots with your arms relaxed at your sides. The best compromise is keeping the snare with its head perfectly flat, but it’s still a compromise. It means that no matter which grip I use, my snare drum is never completely 100% comfortable to play. When using traditional grip I have to keep my left elbow slightly lower than ideal, and when using matched grip I have to keep my left elbow slightly higher than is ideal.

 

So, I strongly advise anyone just starting out playing drums to using matched grip for everything. If you’re in a marching band, insist that you be provided with a holder that will keep the snare drum level in front of you so you can use matched grip (or provide your own holder). There’s just no reason to bother with traditional grip any more. None. Over the years I have wished many, many times that I could go back in time and change my left-hand grip from traditional to matched when I was first starting out. It would have been the best of both worlds for me.

 

 

[wvu80]

33 minutes ago, hsosdrummer said:

On 1/6/2017 at 6:49 PM, wvu80 said:

Then if she goes for matched grip it is a very easy transition, but much harder to switch from matched to traditional.

 

I disagree with this in the strongest possible way. (respectful Snip! just wanted to reference the excellent post)

 

OK, wow.  You present and articulate an incredibly cogent argument.  Nice job! 

 

The only meek reply I can muster is that all the drum corps snares play traditional grip.  The Santa Clara Vanguard went matched a few years ago and switched back.  Obviously the mallet and tenor drums all use matched.

 

Blue Devils 2016 snare line.

 

[oldtimer]

Edit your post because you say the same thing in a contradictory manner.

Also, don't put too much stock in what these corps are doing.  We had an alum in our college section, he wasn't all that.  He was good, but not all that.

[hsosdrummer]

5 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

OK, wow.  You present and articulate an incredibly cogent argument.  Nice job! 

 

The only meek reply I can muster is that all the drum corps snares play matched grip.  The Santa Clara Vanguard went matched at one point and has since switched back. 

 

 

Showmanship is extremely important for drum corps, so it's vital that all the snare drummers play with the same grip. I don't know why a corps may choose traditional grip over matched, but I know that I can only execute corps-type stuff using traditional grip. It's possible that these top-flight corps require their snare drummers to be equally proficient with both grips.

[wvu80]

1 minute ago, oldtimer said:

Edit your post because you say the same thing in a contradictory manner.

Also, don't put too much stock in what these corps are doing.  We had an alum in our college section, he wasn't all that.  He was good, but not all that.

Got it.  Thanks. 

+++

 

I consider the DCI drum corps drum lines the finest in the world, especially the ones that win top drums every years like the Blue Devils, Santa Clara Vanguard and The Cadets.  The skill level and execution level of these kids is beyond belief.

[hsosdrummer]

2 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

I consider the DCI drum corps drum lines the finest in the world, especially the ones that win top drums every years like the Blue Devils, Santa Clara Vanguard and The Cadets.  The skill level and execution level of these kids is beyond belief.

Totally agree. I was never good enough to get into one of those world-class corps. (Spent too much time practicing drumset, not enough strictly on snare.)

[oldtimer]

Much of what they do is based on precision execution, not total musicianship.  The corps are extremely cool, but I wouldn't lament not getting in as not being good enough for what really counts.

[wvu80]

Just now, hsosdrummer said:

Showmanship is extremely important for drum corps, so it's vital that all the snare drummers play with the same grip. I don't know why a corps may choose traditional grip over matched, but I know that I can only execute corps-type stuff using traditional grip. It's possible that these top-flight corps require their snare drummers to be equally proficient with both grips.

 

Hey, I'm not arguing with you, my friend.  Your post got my attention and my respect. 

+++

 

Semi-thread drift:  You actually remind me about a conversation with a guy on a drum corps website.  I was giving some advice to someone who wanted to play drums for a living and I said basically "don't quit your day job."  Another guy who later became a drum corps buddy chimed in and said "yes you can."

 

After a brief exchange in which my argument was blown into the weeds, it turns out this guy had been a drummer with Blast! and later went on to become an instructor with the highest scoring drum line and champion in in DCI history.

 

You'd think I would have learned by now not to argue with my betters! 

[oldtimer]

1 minute ago, wvu80 said:

You'd think I would have learned by now not to argue with my betters!

Recently enough, I have learned better.

[wvu80]

1 minute ago, oldtimer said:

Recently enough, I have learned better.

You hold your own pretty well in any battle of wits that I've seen. 

[hsosdrummer]

10 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

Hey, I'm not arguing with you, my friend.  Your post got my attention and my respect. 

I don't mean to come across as argumentative, I guess it's just that I write with authority for a living (I've been creating user manuals for electronics products for over 20 years) and it rubs-off no matter what I write. (Besides, I'm basically just a big "know-it-all", who turns out to be full of shit almost as often as not.)

 

To be fair to your "don't quit your day job" advice, although it's possible to make a comfortable living at drum corps, the number of people doing it is pretty damn small. After all, the same could also be said for those making a comfortable living as rock stars.

[wvu80]

18 minutes ago, hsosdrummer said:

I don't mean to come across as argumentative, I guess it's just that I write with authority for a living (I've been creating user manuals for electronics products for over 20 years) and it rubs-off no matter what I write. (Besides, I'm basically just a big "know-it-all", who turns out to be full of shit almost as often as not.)

 

You don't come across that way at all.  You DO write with authority and I'm not surprised you write for a living.  Your writing is concise and clear, no waste of words at all.

+++

 

My concept of arguing is an exchange of ideas, it's not a pejorative, unless it's meaningless arguing.  That I won't do.

[Paducah Home Theater]

All I want to know is how the hell are you supposed to whack cymbals and toms with a traditional grip?  I don't see the point if you are doing nothing but rock music on a drum set.  

[wvu80]

38 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said:

All I want to know is how the hell are you supposed to whack cymbals and toms with a traditional grip?  I don't see the point if you are doing nothing but rock music on a drum set.  

It's not hard. 

 

Steve Gadd, the drummer for Aja is one of the best in the business at playing a drum kit.  He plays with traditional grip. 

 

Study this Master Class Youtube vid to see how it is done.  Gadd is the drummer's drummer.

 

 

 

[wvu80]

Steve Gadd can use any drum kit he wants.  You can tell he's a pro because the pros know that you want to get to the gig, have a quick setup, quick knockdown and then you're out of there.

 

This is what the amateur wannabes drum kit looks like:

 

 

 

This guy is over the top with his setup, but his drumming is average at best.  He should have spent less on drums and used that money to take more lessons.

 

 

[wvu80]

I like this routine.  Matched grip of course. 

 

 

[hsosdrummer]

As I stated earlier, traditional grip imposes physical limitations that matched grip does not. I have no doubt that if Steve Gadd had started out using nothing but matched grip and put in his 10,000 hours of practice* using nothing but matched grip he could play even better than he does with traditional grip.

 

Here's 100% proof that traditional grip isn't as good as matched grip: If it were, we'd use it for both hands.

 

*Refers to Malcom Gladwell's theory of how much practice it takes to become an expert at anything.

[wvu80]

35 minutes ago, hsosdrummer said:

Here's 100% proof that traditional grip isn't as good as matched grip: If it were, we'd use it for both hands.

 

Maybe you should take the lead in promoting the dual traditional grip.  You could start a trend. 

+++

 

As for me, I refuse to be dragged into the 21st century!  The Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps will make my case for me.

 

 

 

I love these guys.  They are the best marchers I have ever seen.  You could drop them from from a helicopter onto a vacant field and they would still be as good, no yard lines needed.

 

 

[oldtimer]

The snare on the sling.  The picture says it all.  The natural slant of the drum is the reason for the grip.  Today's level mounts make it unnecessary.  It's also not necessary to go into the pros and cons of either grip here, just play, listen, enjoy.

[dirtmudd]