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Mitchibo

Should I stay or should I go...

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-12 is max its still too high for calibration...lower and run again then tweak after if u like.  Awesome sauce on getting them rockin!

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There is a room behind there. And yes, that's a good point. I can scooch them to the left a little to give a bit more reflex. Even like this it seems pretty monsterous. I can't imagine how other people run 8 subs. I can only assume a big dedicated media room?

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I assume then -12  is the max offset, turning the sub down, and recalculating with Audyssey will prevent sub over drive?

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Re did it. 9.5 sub off set. Another question. 2 channel play back has distance and level calculations. Obviously we keep those settings for HT but I tend to be seated in the middle of my listening area for 2 ch playback. So if I reset those distance and particularly the levels to match would that in any way affect the Audyssey HT calculations? Sometimes I use a music profile but I do like to run it pure as well. Not sure if pure bypasses Audyssey but it seems to as the levels are +- .5 Db Lt and Rt. vs -3.5/-7.5 Lt and Rt respectively. 

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16 hours ago, Mitchibo said:

Re did it. 9.5 sub off set. Another question. 2 channel play back has distance and level calculations. Obviously we keep those settings for HT but I tend to be seated in the middle of my listening area for 2 ch playback. So if I reset those distance and particularly the levels to match would that in any way affect the Audyssey HT calculations? Sometimes I use a music profile but I do like to run it pure as well. Not sure if pure bypasses Audyssey but it seems to as the levels are +- .5 Db Lt and Rt. vs -3.5/-7.5 Lt and Rt respectively. 

 

-9.5 is better. I use a MiniDSP and keep my sub out through the receiver at -10. I raise my trim level through the mini. The only time I raise it through the receiver is for music. 

 

Yes, pure bypasses Audyssey and only runs the l/r and no subs. I never use Pure. 

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:38 PM, Mitchibo said:

So I installed the R112's just to the outside of the mains. It hooked them up to the LFE on the back of the Denon. I turned the filter on the sub to LFE. I ran Audyssey with the subs set to 50%. Naturally it said "turn them down!"  I set them each about 78-79 (25-30%) Db and ran it. It offset the subs to -12 Db. I suppose it's better to have - than running the pre too hot. I've got a lot of room to heat them up. 

 

Listening to tow chanel sounds great. I'll have to put in a movie. I have The Martian and the latest Mad Max as these are cool in 4K.

 

And so the advice given here has paid off. I DO like the bigger image. Thanks to the above posts. I would still solicit advice. Let it fly. IMG_0027.thumb.JPG.e3f05293199c03ee0266c7ce875f3311.JPG

Nice setup.......you have done well my friend.

 

George,

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Now put your 3rd sub in the center of the rear wall.  Plus, I'd put the left sub along the left wall closer to the center of the left wall.  The object is to even out the bass output throughout the room (no standing waves). 

 

Many subs sharing the load means lower cone excursion and lower distortion. 

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2ch playback uses same settings.  The first audyssey test position should be your center spot for both music and ht.  

 

There is always a compromise bn 2ch and ht.  It cant do both perfectly.

 

I have one theater untreated and setup for music even though its a 7.4 setup.

 

Then the other theater is treated and optimized for ht.  

 

Both play both well but there are obv differences listening to each room.  

 

Music is bright and clear and widely separated with lots of room reverb.  Home theater is heavily damped with a very smooth frequency response and speaker setup optimized for theater playback i.e. more specific positioning than 2ch.

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Anything under 12 says you are in range.  That means it is level matched to your main speakers.  Now that it is dialed innyou can change sub volume in the avr...never on the gain of the sub.

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Thanks for the feedback. I learn something every time I read yawls posts. So here are a few more detail photos of my living room/listening area. It's pretty wonky. A lot of obstacles and a rock fireplace. This is all I have to work with so would using a MiniDSP as Rowan611 suggested (or didn't suggest) be useful in this situation? What I have is an improvement with the new subs, however we all want to squeeze out all we can from our systems. W/O a dedicated theater room would his be throwing money into a minicule improvement due to a weird room?

IMG_0038.JPG

IMG_0039.JPG

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Here's another stupid question. Has anyone stacked their main on top of their sub cabinet to conserve space?

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On 3/31/2017 at 10:21 PM, Mitchibo said:

Here's another stupid question. Has anyone stacked their main on top of their sub cabinet to conserve space?

Yes, I have seen that before.  It's not  crazy idea.  You might try it and see how you like it.

 

Just remember the idea of two subs is to smooth out the peaks and nulls in the room.  By stacking the subs you defeat the usual reason for having two subs in the first place.

+++

 

Someplace upstream you said something about " So if I reset those distance and particularly the levels to match would that in any way affect the Audyssey HT calculations?"

 

I'm not sure if you meant resetting the subs physically, or resetting the distance in the AVR but I suggest you do not reset what Audyssey has suggested in terms of distance.  For instance my sub is physically 13 feet from the MLP but Audyssey has set the distance at 25 feet.  The feet in the AVR does not really mean distance, but time.  The 25' setting (for instance) is setting a delay based on how all the sounds bounce off walls, ceiling, etc so the sound arrives at the MLP at the same time.

 

Many people like to run their subs hotter than what Audyssey suggests with good success but I would not mess with the Audyssey distance settings.  If you move the subs, re-run Audyssey.

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On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 9:00 PM, Mitchibo said:

Has anyone installed bass traps? Or experienced in acoustic treatments?

Bass traps need to be in the corners and have to be fairly large to work with those frequencies.

 

If you want to dip into acoustic panels, start with putting them on the side walls at the first reflection point.  How do you find that?  Sit in the listening position and have someone slide a mirror along the wall.  When you see your speaker in the mirror, mark the spot and hang a panel there.

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If you don't have an AVR with Audyssey or YPAO or another form of correction, I think it would be very valuable to get a miniDSP as it will let you EQ your subs and flatten the response so there aren't huge peaks or dips.

 

Putting speakers on subs can actually be a benefit but is almost never "best".  The issue is that subs need to be positioned carefully for best response, while front speakers are placed in very specific areas and while they have some flexibility, not anything like the subs.  So while the mains HAVE to be in a certain place, subs do not.  The very reason we all have so many subs is because the positioning of the mains cannot come close to providing the best bass response...compared to flexibility to place the subs around the room as needed. 

 

I have a lot of experience with bass traps and absorption panels, I've bought them from craigslist, a national company and have done DIY also.  

Treating a room at the most basic level will improve the sound quality of most rooms more than any other factor.  The only factor more important is the placement of the equipment.  Speakers in the wrong place cannot be overcome, but beyond that treating the room so that the reflections are tamed, is an improvement that nobody should miss unless they can't do it for aesthetic reasons.

 

Putting panels at the first reflection points (what you see typically in a room, panels on the left and right side absorbing some of the reflected sound) will improve the clarity so much of a center channel and the L/R that most people would not believe it.

 

For about $120 from a mfg, or $50 DIY, 2 panels can be had that will improve almost any room.   Beyond that is a lot more, but that most basic thing is huge.  Then as CEC is saying, adding bass traps (broadband absorbers really) is incredible.  Lots of bass is great, but lots of bass properly controlled is heaven.  

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Interesting info Robo. Since my last post I installed a few 4" panels behind MLP, up high pointing at angle downward. One to the left and one to the right. These are more ceiling treatments than wall treatments. After bobbing my head up and down and all over the living room I found that the wall/ceiling joint keeping a lot of woofy bass stuck up there.  Also one vertical corning got a wedge bass trap. It didn't change the sound image radically but it helped eliminate that swirling eddy in the corner.

 

I am taking yours and others advice on the MiniDSP. Gunna get the whole kit with mic and all. REW is loaded to the laptop as well as a 130 page tutorial. The measuring itself should be a breeze however it seems like most of the tutorial was dedicated to getting all the settings correct (mic recognition/calibration, sound card, etc.). Yeesh. Into the abyss I go.

 

Lastly I have a question about that 3rd Klip110 sub I have left over. My 12's are placed symmetrically in the front. I have only three option if I wanted to integrate the 110. Option one would be to place it directly on my left of the MLP. This would be asymmetrical...all subs lined up in an "L" fashion firing to the center of the room, more or less. Option two would be to place it 8 to 10 foot to my right along the back, wall firing towards the center, also in an opposite "L" arrangement. Option three would be to pull the couch out from the wall 12 inches and stick it right behind it, but having to firing perpendicular, as in facing right or facing left. This would at least give me a triangular arrangement but it wouldn't be able to face forward towards the other subs.  A couch is a pretty big bass trap. Thought?

 

I may have to do subwoofer crawl but it would be nice to get others feed back so I don't waste a bunch of time.   

 

I assume I'd place the two front 12's on a "Y" splitter to accommodate number three in the Denon?

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Place the weaker sub nearest.  This will help with amp overhead.  Nothing magical about symmetrical subs.  In fact, symmetrical position will reinforce the same peaks and dips.  I have subs asymmetrically placed around the room.  This lead to a more even FR that needs minimal EQ.  Use Y splitters as needed.  

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Interesting info Robo. Since my last post I installed a few 4" panels behind MLP, up high pointing at angle downward. One to the left and one to the right. These are more ceiling treatments than wall treatments. After bobbing my head up and down and all over the living room I found that the wall/ceiling joint keeping a lot of woofy bass stuck up there.  Also one vertical corning got a wedge bass trap. It didn't change the sound image radically but it helped eliminate that swirling eddy in the corner.

 

I am taking yours and others advice on the MiniDSP. Gunna get the whole kit with mic and all. REW is loaded to the laptop as well as a 130 page tutorial. The measuring itself should be a breeze however it seems like most of the tutorial was dedicated to getting all the settings correct (mic recognition/calibration, sound card, etc.). Yeesh. Into the abyss I go.

 

Recent update: Two R112's with MiniDSP corrections have proved to be the 8th wonder of the world. If two are great I assume two more would be really bitchin', no? Small room but who cares?

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@Mitchibo  Glad you're liking your setup, kind of amazing how much you can learn on this forum.  I need to do two panels, on either side of the mains, for those first order reflections.  Then, like you, I need REW, mic, build a second UMAX 15 sub, upgrade my mains, source components, etc.  You know, dime store stuff, right?  Hardly.  I noticed that about the REW instructions as well.  Mostly setup, but lengthy.  I'm ordering a low level preamp/amp combo Monday, but will be a considerable upgrade compared to what I'm using now.  Back to the music..

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