One extremely nice sub or two very nice subs?

[DizRotus]

2 minutes ago, SWL said:

Headroom will not only give you effortless bass, it will make your mids and highs sound better. Smoother, cleaner and downright more pleasing to listen to.

 

 

That’s what I was trying to stay.  You expressed it better.

[vasubandu]

Why thanks @SWL that makes sense.  A few people have said it is better to have 2 subs relaxing instead of one pushed to its limits.  And that reminds me a of joke in which 3 people are asked to name the greatest invention of all time. One says the car, the second says space rockets, and the third says the thermos.  The first two laugh and say, "the thermos?" and the third says yes, it keeps hot things hot and cold things cold.  The other two says, "So what," and the third says, "Yes, but how does it know?"

 

So my question is how the subwoofers know to relax?  Are they telepathic or something?
 

[SWL]

With subs you want to keep your gains as low as possible. Multiple subs will give more output allowing you to keep their gains down. Cleaner bass, cleaner overall sound quality.....

 

.....and with multiple subs, when you want to crank it you're gonna have a more visceral, powerful sound that will add so much to the overall effect. Mids and highs included.

 

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[vasubandu]

See, @SWL here is my problem.  I am not even sure what a gain is, although I assume that it relates to volume.  I have a lot to learn, and I am finding a lot of online resources, but I keep having to go back to learn what terms they use mean.  I also need to learn some more about the physics of sound.  I am far more familiar with electricity and other areas.  In electricity, we have I=P/V or I=W/V  if you are sloppy like me.  So we have current (I), power measured in Watts (P), and force measured in volts (V).  I am trying to analogize to sound. I assume that if I apply more electrical power to a speaker, it will be louder.  I also assume that a larger speaker will generally be louder than a small one.  So I would be inclined to think that Speaker size or capability is like Watts, and the amount of power applied is like volts.  So that the sound would equal the size divided by the power.  That would suggest that I could get the same amount of sound from a larger speaker with less power than for a smaller one.  

 

But it seems that sound has other characteristics as well.  When played too loud, speakers become distorted.  Logic suggests to me that this actually is a continuum of some kind, and that the distortion only becomes noticeable at certain levels, but that any increase in power will decrease the fidelity of the speaker.  So the speaker that is off is the only one that is perfect. 

 

There also is what I can only call a fullness of sound.  It is not loudness, but feels like it in some senses. It is the point where listening is effortless and not strained. I wonder if anyone has identified and measured that.

 

This is just where my mind goes with new topics.  I do love new rabbit holes.

[SWL]

The subwoofer gain I was referring to is simply the volume knob on the sub and/or the sub volume on your receiver/processor.

Something you definitely want to look into is room acoustic treatments. Google it and take it all in. You will definitely benefit from room treatments. Your room dictates the way your system sounds/performs and how much you will enjoy it. Tuning your room is as important as tuning your gear.

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[vasubandu]

Thanks @SWL I will.  I am curious to see how the walls affect things.  They are covered in grasscloth wallpaper which is literally woven grass in a square cross pattern.  When we had it installed, the first thing I noticed was that the room echo was completely gone.  None of that feedback that we get all the time but never notice.  The floors are bamboo, but there will be a rug in the TV area.  So it should really be a dead area for sound.

[SWL]

Cool. It's a fine line having your room too live or too dead. Your challenge is to find that balance to your preference....among other things. Phase, crossover point, dealing with bass cancellation etc. are some of the things you will soon learn about.

Is your system geared more towards HT or two-channel playback or both?


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[SWL]

You might want to start another thread. I just realized this was somebody else's thread.

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[DizRotus]

18 minutes ago, SWL said:

You might want to start another thread. I just realized this was somebody else's thread.

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@wuzzzer solved his sub(s) issue back on page 1.  He probably doesn’t mind.

[SWL]

Cool.[emoji106]

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[vasubandu]

Yeah, Wuzzy and I have communicated a lot, but I started a new one to clean things up.

[wuzzzer]

8 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

 

@wuzzzer solved his sub(s) issue back on page 1.  He probably doesn’t mind.

Get off my thread you meddling kids!! 

 

 It's ok.  @vasubandu I've enjoyed your posts.  I can tell you really want to make good decisions and learn all you can.  Once you get everything dialed in you'll be extremely happy.

[vasubandu]

Thanks Wuzzer, the people here certainly are willing to share their knowledge.

[ClaudeJ1]

3 hours ago, DizRotus said:

While a single sub can be placed almost anywhere, due to the apparent omni-directionality of bass, some spots are better than others for smooth balanced output.  Multiple subs make it easier to overcome specific room anomalies.

 

In my experience, the second sub was a huge improvement over a single sub.  The bass was more balanced in the small space.  Even the mids and highs seemed better after the second sub was put in.  The second sub did not improve the extension but it did permit higher SPL without sounding overworked.  Honestly, the third and fourth subs improved things, but not nearly as dramatically as going from one to two.

Yes, the most dramatic is from one to two, One Center Front, and One Center rear, mono signal with your sweet spot EXACTLY between them so the room modes cancel out. That is the simplest and second best setup right behind having 2 more, one on right center side wall and one on left center side wall, for a total of 4........with diminishing returns. 2 is almost as good. I have had both and want to go back to 4, but I could live with just 2.

Vasubandu, you need to read Todd Welti's research, from JBL.

multsubs.pdf

[wvu80]

6 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Back to the original point. Two Subs, not one, silly kids.

One good sub, not two average ones, my Jedi Master. 

[vasubandu]

Got it @ClaudeJ1 and will read it for sure.  When you say exactly between them, you mean have the back way far enough away that I am sitting at the mid point between them?  I can do that in my room.

[ClaudeJ1]

Just now, vasubandu said:

Got it @ClaudeJ1 and will read it for sure.  When you say exactly between them, you mean have the back way far enough away that I am sitting at the mid point between them?  I can do that in my room.

Yes, that is what I do and my bass is flat from 20-200 Hz. with just 2, but head EXACTLY between......IOW, center point. This also allow a bit of Left and Right head movement, like 3 on a couch with very little change. So it's the front/back centering that is critical. You will thank me later!!

[vasubandu]

Yes @wvu80 but I hope that I am on the path to two good subs.  At least every review I have found is crazy about the PB2 Plus and PB12 Ultra/2.  By all means, let me know if you think I am headed in the wrong direction.

[vasubandu]

Well @ClaudeJ1 that is completely news to me but it makes sense.  If I have two subwoofers sending exactly the same signal from different distances, then I am going to hear them at different times.  And even that tiny difference probably makes a difference.  This is really cool.

[ClaudeJ1]

13 hours ago, vasubandu said:

Well @ClaudeJ1 that is completely news to me but it makes sense.  If I have two subwoofers sending exactly the same signal from different distances, then I am going to hear them at different times.  And even that tiny difference probably makes a difference.  This is really cool.

The change of head related times only matter slightly relative to the room MODES peaks and dips. Remember that a TRUE subwoofer subsonic range of frequencies is below 40 Hz., but some speakers in need of help at 80, whereas, localization at those frequencies is impossible to detect, unless there is port chuffing or lots of harmonic distortion in the case of direct radiators (not horns, which are CLEAN). Remember we are talking about wavelengths that are 14-60 feet long here.