oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said: They can be bought. Keep that in mind. LOL. Who do you really think has been bought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: All comparing could do is wind up in an endless ***-for-tat. It's pointless. Fwiw, our Foreign Policy and how it works is changing under this administration and if that can't be part of the discussion then I suggest y'all are having a pointless conversation. On that note, have a good one and I am outta here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Pak and India will never join China. The US and Britain own them and their undying loyalty. I said I was out but saw this---Don't be so sure about Pakistan because they have burned us before--Remember who sold NK their nuclear technology? Now I'm out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, oldtimer said: LOL. Who do you really think has been bought? Everyone. Life is all about sales and exchanges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 Just now, Jeff Matthews said: I think it's because as part of opening up trade relations with China under Nixon, we committed to a "One China Policy." Under it, we are permitted to advocate that China follow a democratic model, but we are not permitted to acknowledge Taiwan's sovereignty. I think it was a middle ground so that we could happily trade with both. A+. We signed a UN treaty to that effect in '71 and the UN has same position. Until '72 we had no diplomatic relations with China, none, zero. People always wonder why the fuss about not allowing Taiwanese to compete in Olympics under own flag. Look how slow and long that process was. If Taiwan try to declare independence it is official policy of mainland China to invade. Only 1/5 of Taiwan want independence, 75 percent want status quo, 5% want to reunite. After some 60 years the President of Taiwan was accepted as a visitor to Beijing, 5 years later a (within last 5 years as I recall) a minister level official from Beijing visted Taiwan. The first official visit since '49. So how do we apply leverage on negotiations when there is a country we want independent, but can't really jump behind because we are limited by treaty? Who do you really poke China? How do they poke back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Just now, Jeff Matthews said: Everyone. Life is all about sales and exchanges. Aha! And you wanted to say earlier that it wasn't a trade issue.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: I said I was out but saw this---Don't be so sure about Pakistan because they have burned us before--Remember who sold NK their nuclear technology? Good point. I had some reservations about listing Pak, but I forgot specifically why. I think we are quite safe with India, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Such a trusting soul.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, oldtimer said: Aha! And you wanted to say earlier that it wasn't a trade issue.... Not the oppression part. Trade actions can be a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said: Not the oppression part. Trade actions can be a solution. backslider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, oldtimer said: backslider. Well, maybe a little, but I think you might see the distinction I am trying to make without making me twist my brain too hard to articulate it. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: Fwiw, our Foreign Policy and how it works is changing under this administration and if that can't be part of the discussion then I suggest y'all are having a pointless conversation. On that note, have a good one and I am outta here. Then open a different thread on that topic. However, I think you are wrong, we are in the situation where a current administration is dealing with the situation they have now, created by previous administrations, that go back decades, and diplomacy is what it takes. Posturing in public, talking in private. The most radical departure occurred in then last admin with congressional approval. What we are seeing today is a reaction to that in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: when there is a country we want independent, Here is where you ask why. This was a political decision because the general lost and retreated there. There is no far reaching strategic importance, is there? We don't need them for trade anymore now that we discovered a newer cheaper and more disposable work force that is ripe for the raping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: diplomacy is what it takes. Speaking for Zen (yeah big mistake), he is advocating good diplomacy and citing the failure of such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: 😉 I mentioned it regarding James' post. WTH is that? Speak English please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 42 minutes ago, oldtimer said: Do you realize how much life would change here in the US if they "rethought" their position on Taiwan? Yeah, exactly. How much US investment is there in China? They are 20th largest economy in the world, this isn't Cuba. We have an agreement with Taiwan that if they are invaded they defend themselves until we come with calvery, ANZUS says they might help US. Our treaty with Japan says that they might help. It is a tail that wags the dog, us and China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 An agreement, but not a treaty, as you say. What a cluster, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 19 minutes ago, oldtimer said: Speaking for Zen (yeah big mistake), he is advocating good diplomacy and citing the failure of such. I agree 100% with him, but I reject the premise that you have to bring politics into the equation to have a discussion about it. What has worked in past with China, what hasn't? What is working today, what isn't? Discuss the policy or tactics, not the policymakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 49 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Pak and India will never join China. The US and Britain own them and their undying loyalty. China, Russia, N. Korea. Those are the problem areas. If I understand correctly, Russia is not very fond of China at all. They can be bought. Keep that in mind. Good lord. China needs no one to join them. They have a fleet of submarines we are scrambling to catch up with. They conduct joint operations with Russia in the Yellow Sea every year (for at least 10 years) with both subs and ships. They get a poke at us. We do a joint op with Japan, we get a poke at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: How much US investment is there in China? So why worry about Taiwan? because we have an agreement going back to a failed would be despot in order to foil the actual despots? BTW, 20th? China? No. Look who is not in the top 20. https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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