Dave1290 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 ^^^^^^^ I'mma thunkin just more Ghost Pepper hot sauce on my Snausage Egg McMuffin! 😂 😎 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 I disagree. The planet is full of resources, enough for everyone and then, some. It's a matter of how we use them. If you allow market forces to do their job, supplies will remain ample. Go take a drive through the grassy plains of the Southwestern US. It's huge out there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Dave1290 said: ^^^^^^^ I'mma thunkin just more Ghost Pepper hot sauce on my Snausage Egg McMuffin! 😂 😎 I have a bunch more to make now, and will take pre-orders... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1290 Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, oldtimer said: I have a bunch more to make now, and will take pre-orders... Msg me when you've got a couple ready! Ha! I'm down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco-d-gama Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Considering that earth now houses ‘billions’ the human toll of a modern dark age would necessarily be ginormous, quite unthinkable in fact. The victor and arbiter must invoke some harsh and draconian rules........ a ‘tone’ honestly better suited to the historically demonstrated Chinese intellect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said: I disagree. The planet is full of resources, enough for everyone and then, some. It's a matter of how we use them. If you allow market forces to do their job, supplies will remain ample. Go take a drive through the grassy plains of the Southwestern US. It's huge out there! Market forces are what are polluting the earth right now. The resources are there if we tap the right ones with increasing technology. The dogma of market forces may be appealing but it is not the be all and end all of answers. Every action has a reaction. Extracting nat gas through fracking is leading to poisoning the water supply in a lot of places, and has also been tied to increasing instability of the ground---earthquakes. Clean water is a key element of our survival, is it not? So we either have to find a technology to cleanse the water we pollute, or distribute clean water more effectively, or stop polluting it. I suppose you might say that when the need arises and people are dropping dead then market forces will save the day and provide the necessary supply. OK, at what cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, Bosco-d-gama said: Considering that earth now houses ‘billions’ the human toll of a modern dark age would necessarily be ginormous, quite unthinkable in fact. You betcha! Except it is thinkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 11 hours ago, dwilawyer said: You were in Hong Kong, a lot happened with China in the 80s, including the lease between UK and China ending, I know zero on the history behind the lease, I do remember negotiations happening, reasurances that it would remain a free trade zone, etc. I think Macau is set up same way. Were there any lessons to be learned from Hong Kong that were not, What was happening with human rights issues with China before 1980, anything? Lots of stuff in there... The "lease" was a sham. The British basically simply occupied the island of HK and declared it a crown colony. However, the majority of the area was annexed as the New Territories by lease/treaty in 1898 with a 99 year lease. It expired in 1997. The British had almost no leverage in the return and PRC allowing a semblance of self-government was enlightened self interest in terms of the massive foreign revenue HK and the NT generate. The "border" between HK/NT and the Special Administrative Area of Shenzen remains as tight, if not tighter, than under the British. And the border between the Shenzen SAA and the non-SAA is just about as tight as Chinese citizens have to have permits to enter the SAAs and HK as well. "One country, two systems." Same with Macau. Originally leased, Portugal assumed "perpetual" ownership in the 19th century. However, as the HK lease drew near to expiration the PRC simply told Portugal to get out. They did, and Macau became an SAA as well. It's an interesting place with some old centuries old streets so Portuguese in appearance you could easily wake up there and be confused about your whereabouts. The SAA designations are NOT about human rights, but protecting the incredible cash flow of these areas. Otherwise, they are basically quarantined though the attempts of ordinary Chinese to get into them are almost as prevalent now as when they belonged to European powers. As to human rights issues, Mao established his "Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land" concept in 1956 but as it had the opposite effect he intended ended it shortly thereafter with an iron fist. The phrase was next heard in the 1970s "Great Cultural Revolution" as a means of smoking out dissidents and those wanting more economic and social freedom. China is unique among nations and cannot be readily judged by European standards. There is no negotiating when they declare some area as Chinese, like Taiwan. As mentioned, I really don't have a clue what claim they think they have on Tibet...but no point arguing with them unless you want to fight. Beyond all that, I really do not see the Chinese as having imperial ambitions to annex anything not historically (in their view) part of China. However, they are certainly headed towards what the Japanese coded in the 1930s as the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," though that one was simply a ruse for imperial ambitions while it is my belief the Chinese are more interested in economic hegemony than in sending in occupying forces. In that regard, they are the smartest nascent "empire" in history. And we should understand that Asia is only the beginning. China WILL dominate the world economy in the not too distant future. It is inevitable. While it would be nice to think the "communist" government, which is really just the old imperial system without the crown complete with massive civil bureaucracy, might fall, don't hold your breath. While there is some unrest, those in the SAAs are quite satisfied making their billions and, as we all know, the golden rule states that "Those who have the gold make the rules." Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 7 hours ago, oldtimer said: So we either have to find a technology to cleanse the water we pollute, or distribute clean water more effectively, or stop polluting it. Yes, and market forces will drive so much of that. If water becomes so precious that we have to stop polluting, we will stop polluting. There was a pretty good answer given once by a marine biologist talking about endangered species: "If you want to keep an endangered species from going extinct, put it on the menu." OMG!!! Brilliant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 So, long live expensive water. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, oldtimer said: So, long live expensive water. Enjoy. Its price will reflect the value we place on other, competing activities. This is nothing new. Bottled water is already more expensive than gas. People seem to be okay with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Cattle and other foods aren't. Make some sense. Water is fundamental to life. Bad water kills life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 By your reasoning, the end result is the same as mine. There will be less sustainable resources which will have to support a smaller population. Your reasoning is skewed by living in an extremely wealthy part of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 We can just talk past each other all night. I understand your point, which is we need to protect our environment. You understand mine, which is market forces will require us to do it. The only argument is whether the market might have to make a drastic adjustment at some point for failure to notice/appreciate a serious condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 I just paid a little over $2 for 3 gallons of bottled water. How much do you pay for gas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 Just now, oldtimer said: I just paid a little over $2 for 3 gallons of bottled water. How much do you pay for gas? You are the master quibbler! I can't think of any situation where people are paying more for water than gas. Can you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Bottled water is already more expensive than gas. Just asking. You said it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Dying for an out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 29 minutes ago, oldtimer said: I just paid a little over $2 for 3 gallons of bottled water. How much do you pay for gas? You didn't say what kind of gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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