Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: Please ignore him. Let's keep this thread alive and continue the perfectly appropriate discussion up to this point. I just hid @Zen Traveler 3 most recent posts which were clearly an attempt to swing this talk into current national politics. @Zen Traveler, I agreed completely with what you had in 2 of those posts, but you are clearly taking jabs at current admin, please stop doing this. If you can't help yourself stay out of here, I put too much time into trying to keep this thread from being locked. I really appreciate this. It's not that I am all caught up on this particular topic. It's more because I know we have some very thoughtful and intelligent people on this forum, and I like to have substantive discussions with them. I don't like being shut down every time a topic can turn into political jabbing. Maybe, this can be one that sets us on a new foot on how to have good, healthy discussions on some modern issues of substance without petty gamesmanship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, LarryC said: That's giving Russia a pass by presuming Russia + China are a zero sum. I'm only saying that Trump is trying to direct attention away from news of Russian meddling by trying to redirect fingers to China, which to my eyes seems to be a lesser offender. China didn't try to swallow up Ukraine or possibly succeed in using subversive friends to help throw an American election and may still be trying. It's a fine line Dr. Dr. but let's see if we can have this conversation about human rights in China without getting into politics, specifically the Chief Executive. Over he last several days there have been a number of announcements about how bad countries were, like Canada, until a trade deal got signed, now they are our best friend again. I don't think we need to get involved in politics to discuss Jeff's issues, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said: I don't know if locking up a million Muslim citizens without due process is a lesser offender than Russia, or not. Make the case for me. Red Herring. How about poisoning enemies of the state abroad, or murdering them in custody. None of any offenses are meant to supersede the other. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 Just now, oldtimer said: Red Herring. How about poisoning enemies of the state abroad, or murdering them in custody. None of any offenses are meant to supersede the other. Thus the challenge made above: "Make the case for me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: I really appreciate this. It's not that I am all caught up on this particular topic. It's more because I know we have some very thoughtful and intelligent people on this forum, and I like to have substantive discussions with them. I don't like being shut down every time a topic can turn into political jabbing. Maybe, this can be one that sets us on a new foot on how to have good, healthy discussions on some modern issues of substance without petty gamesmanship. Which is my goal in case everyone hasn't caught on, and I am doing this by myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Travis, please don't get too touchy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Thus the challenge made above: "Make the case for me." Thus me pointing out that the comparison of one versus the other is a red herring. You don't need a case to be made about who is worse. It does nothing to further the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, oldtimer said: Thus me pointing out that the comparison of one versus the other is a red herring. You don't need a case to be made about who is worse. It does nothing to further the discussion. Thus you agree with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 27 minutes ago, oldtimer said: You mean before we were born. Interpreting any of this using the very near term past is part of the problem, being sub-critical thinking. Thank you. You are so right. None of this is near term, and why it can be discussed without discussing politics or current administration. It starts in '72. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Thus you agree with me. Oh dear god not that! But seriously, don't offer a challenge where none is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuy Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, oldtimer said: Travis, please don't get too touchy. Oh I won't get touchy as long as we can keep the current administration out of it, particularly the Chief Executive. The self moderation has been helpful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 Just now, oldtimer said: Oh dear god not that! But seriously, don't offer a challenge where none is needed. It was bait. Who knows? Maybe a response would have taught me a few things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, dwilawyer said: discussed without discussing politics The fly in the ointment. By definition, this is all politics. It was politics in '72. It still is. Wringing hands over who is current can get a little silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, rebuy said: Yes you are, and it makes you look more intelligent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, dwilawyer said: as long as we can keep the current administration out of it, particularly the Chief Executive. I really fail to see how you can possibly do that considering the current rhetoric out of Washington DC, and from "him"....dance around it all you want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 Ok, now that everyone has this figured out, you need to factor in the two most critical factors which, up to this point in the conversation have gone ignored. First, you all have mentioned some of the ways the US and China poke at each other. In advance of a negotiation sometimes, others just to get a jab in (kind of like on here at times). The time to really start to worry, and it has happened in at least the 5 last administrations, is when China plays the Taiwan card. Second, China owns over 1 trillion of US Debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, dwilawyer said: Second, China owns over 1 trillion of US Debt. You know what happens when lenders find out huge debtors are on the ropes? They lend them more money. I think our indebtedness actually gives us great leverage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuy Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, oldtimer said: Yes you are, and it makes you look more intelligent. Some people are way more smarter than you think. Thanks for the compliment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, jimjimbo said: I really fail to see how you can possibly do that considering the current rhetoric out of Washington DC, and from "him"....dance around it all you want. If I can do it you can, or simply don't partcipate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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