Strong Rhetoric on China

[Jeff Matthews]

That goes for you, too, Woofers.  That parting jab is quite obvious.  

[oldtimer]

Jeff, you want to frame this while dismissing the economic part of the issue.  From past discussions I know you are well aware of how economics and the "golden rule" fit in with everything.  In that sense, Jimbo is correct that ultimately it always comes down to money.  Economic control is the foundation of all control.

[Jeff Matthews]

Just now, oldtimer said:

Jeff, you want to frame this while dismissing the economic part of the issue.  From past discussions I know you are well aware of how economics and the "golden rule" fit in with everything.  In that sense, Jimbo is correct that ultimately it always comes down to money.  Economic control is the foundation of all control.

Of course, this is true, but it is far from the gospel.  There have been many times justice and human rights have prevailed despite whatever good "economics" would otherwise dictate.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

6 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

I have no idea what that means, and no idea where the subject of hate surfaced from you.

Fair enough.

 

His daughter should be setting a supportive example, especially when he is playing hardball against the US's rival.  

[oldtimer]

In the context of this thread, how would you expect "justice" to be carried out?  A corollary to the discussion is the recent release by the intelligence community (ours) that we are essentially either on the brink or already facing "cold war 2.0."  The first one toppled the USSR, but most people there outside the new bosses haven't gained much of anything.  What do you think might happen this time?

[Jeff Matthews]

1 minute ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Fair enough.

 

His daughter should be setting a supportive example, especially when he is playing hardball against the US's rival.  

Just bear in mind the party is just barely getting started.  Why don't you give it a chance to develop and see what happens?

[Jeff Matthews]

1 minute ago, oldtimer said:

In the context of this thread, how would you expect "justice" to be carried out?  A corollary to the discussion is the recent release by the intelligence community (ours) that we are essentially either on the brink or already facing "cold war 2.0."  The first one toppled the USSR, but most people there outside the new bosses have gained much of anything.  What do yoy think might happen this time?

Now, we're having the conversation I wanted.  TYFT.

 

TBH, it is a concerning situation.  I have no clue what might come of it, nor do I feign to know exactly how it should be handled.  The implications are quite serious.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Just bear in mind the party is just barely getting started.  Why don't you give it a chance to develop and see what happens?

The party is over. There are balloons and streamers on the floor and a drunk fat chick at the bar taking late to the party suckers. 

[Jeff Matthews]

1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said:

The implications are quite serious.

To briefly expound on this, for example, Russia is China's largest supplier of oil.  It is also in the process of building a $55 billion pipeline to supply natural gas to China.  Our meddling is probably not wanted by Russia.  Know what I mean?

[Travis In Austin]

25 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

 

I think in many ways it has 2 purposes:

 

1.  Cover for ignorance, and

2.  A clear path when faced with coming to a Y in the road - i.e., I don't know what to do; what are people I like doing?

 

 

I think you are absolutely right.

[oldtimer]

Did you ever read The Bear and the Dragon by Tom Clancy?  Instead of cooperation China decided to go in and take what they wanted instead, so yeah, the subject has been brewing for quite a while.  Have you also wondered who is helped by a rise in oil prices?  Most of them are not our friends, and most of our friends are hurt.  What has the price of oil done this year?  Everything ties in.  Economics, human rights, military might, etc.

[Jeff Matthews]

3 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

Everything ties in.  Economics, human rights, military might, etc.

I agree with you.  The salient question is whether a good trade deal will be enough for us to punt the human rights issues.  If not, how far will we take it?  In a global society (which we now are), China has to control its citizens living abroad if it is to maintain is stronghold at home.  The problem with that is it cuts sharply into international sovereignty.  As of late, China has be paying off nations to ignore the issues.  

[Travis In Austin]

29 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

To stop making it a 'I hate this guy no matter what" ...

Why don't we take "the guy" out of it, and his daughter, I seriously doubt she is the reason there was a 375 billion trade deficit I. 2017. 

[Woofers and Tweeters]

1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said:

the human rights issues

Most people in power can not car less. They will use it to gain support. 

 

[Zen Traveler]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

To briefly expound on this, for example, Russia is China's largest supplier of oil.  It is also in the process of building a $55 billion pipeline to supply natural gas to China.  Our meddling is probably not wanted by Russia.  Know what I mean?

And what has really changed in the last 2 years? Lack of diplomacy and distancing ourselves from allies while starting trade wars....This important because the markets are changing and we are no longer working with like-minded countries to coerce those that have been cheating us to act like responsible global citizens.  Notice China is taking our markets (while being an important player in ours) and Russia has been re-elevated to "superpower" status. 

Btw, when you see global polls about how foreigners feel about Americans, it's not just about "like" it's also about "buy into and support." http://www.pewglobal.org/2018/10/01/trumps-international-ratings-remain-low-especially-among-key-allies/

[Jeff Matthews]

Just now, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Most people in power can not car less. They will use it to gain support. 

 

You might be right.  I guess a religious person would say to that, "God works in mysterious ways."  An agnostic might say, "Whatever it takes."

[Zen Traveler]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

The salient question is whether a good trade deal will be enough for us to punt the human rights issues. 

Sure it will.

[Woofers and Tweeters]

2 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Why don't we take "the guy" out of it, and his daughter, I seriously doubt she is the reason there was a 375 billion trade deficit I. 2017.

I agree and OT has a point.

[Jeff Matthews]

1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said:

And what has really changed in the last 2 years? Lack of diplomacy and distancing ourselves from allies while starting trade wars....

You didn't watch the videos.  

 

Zen, our lack of diplomacy is not forcing China to round-up Muslims in the Xinjiang region, strip them from their families and put them into concentration camps.

 

Watch the videos.

[Zen Traveler]

1 minute ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Zen, our lack of diplomacy is not forcing China to round-up Muslims in the Xinjiang region, strip them from their families and put them into concentration camps.

Our lack of diplomacy means we don't have as many allies going for the same goal. China will turn somewhere else to establish their markets and undercut us and our (former) allies. THAT is my point.