upgrade that's not feeling like an upgrade

[Deang]

Lol. That's what happened to me. Had a horn that was supposed to sound better, but eventually decided I preferred the K-400. 

[guf]

2 minutes ago, Deang said:

It's an in-between room.

 

Where are you tapped out with attenuation right now?

i went to sleep at 6,  after trying 3-12. I went to sleep feeling much better about the sound.  

[Deang]

So, you're 3dB down on the tweeter and 12dB down on the mids? Just clarifying - the first sentence threw me. Using the 120?

[rplace]

I don't think this is the root or cause of your "problem", for lack of a better term. But I think this could be contributing. Having the horns/drivers totally exposed can add some sound radiated up, out to the sides and behind. I think this may make things sound different, not necessary better or worse. My Oris 150 horns have a chamber behind them that holds the driver. This in turn has a tight fitting back for it. The system also ships with lots of sound deadening material. I've also owned Khorns for 14 years and currently still have a pair of La Scalas. The top hat of a khorn or the top section of the LS provides some containment of the drivers/horns, no? With everything exposed you are getting some sound radiated to the back and sides.

 

What I find with my Oris horns is that if you remove the backs and more so if  you remove the back and the "stuffing" you get a more airy sound but a less focused sound stage. When I actually measure them (like @Chris A ) is suggesting you do, I can see by the measurements they are actually worse. Worse as far as measurements (phase, group delay) go, sound is subjective as to if you like it or not.

 

I agree with Chris that is seem unlikely you could swap all that out and stumble upon the perfect combo right out of the gate. Seems like it is not practical to cut things up just to get the tucked inside, but I would not give up on them just yet. When I swapped out my AK-2 XOs for a pair of Dean's long ago; I used to keep the screws out of the top section so I could yank the top off, change the settings on the XOs and get right back to listening. I distinctly remember there being a difference with that top piece on or off keeping the same XO settings. I can only conclude that some sound/energy was coming up and out from the driver/horn not just out of the mouth of the horn.

 

Hope this helps

[guf]

32 minutes ago, Deang said:

So, you're 3dB down on the tweeter and 12dB down on the mids? Just clarifying - the first sentence threw me. Using the 120?

Sorry, yes confusing. .  It is at 6 for the mid and 0 for the tweeter, yes the 120.  I was saying thats what i settled on when I went to sleep. I was enjoying it..  I have triend everything from 3 thru 12 for the mid. I went back to 6 on the mids for default.  

[guf]

8 minutes ago, rplace said:

I don't think this is the root or cause of your "problem", for lack of a better term. But I think this could be contributing. Having the horns/drivers totally exposed can add some sound radiated up, out to the sides and behind. I think this may make things sound different, not necessary better or worse. My Oris 150 horns have a chamber behind them that holds the driver. This in turn has a tight fitting back for it. The system also ships with lots of sound deadening material. I've also owned Khorns for 14 years and currently still have a pair of La Scalas. The top hat of a khorn or the top section of the LS provides some containment of the drivers/horns, no? With everything exposed you are getting some sound radiated to the back and sides.

 

What I find with my Oris horns is that if you remove the backs and more so if  you remove the back and the "stuffing" you get a more airy sound but a less focused sound stage. When I actually measure them (like @Chris A ) is suggesting you do, I can see by the measurements they are actually worse. Worse as far as measurements (phase, group delay) go, sound is subjective as to if you like it or not.

 

I agree with Chris that is seem unlikely you could swap all that out and stumble upon the perfect combo right out of the gate. Seems like it is not practical to cut things up just to get the tucked inside, but I would not give up on them just yet. When I swapped out my AK-2 XOs for a pair of Dean's long ago; I used to keep the screws out of the top section so I could yank the top off, change the settings on the XOs and get right back to listening. I distinctly remember there being a difference with that top piece on or off keeping the same XO settings. I can only conclude that some sound/energy was coming up and out from the driver/horn not just out of the mouth of the horn.

 

Hope this helps

Thank you it does help.  Some practical things to think about  and try.  I had a pair of Salk speakers that had a open back or closed back. The closed back to allow for more pin point imaging. Great point!

[Deang]

55 minutes ago, guf said:

Sorry, yes confusing. .  It is at 6 for the mid and 0 for the tweeter, yes the 120.  I was saying thats what i settled on when I went to sleep. I was enjoying it..  I have triend everything from 3 thru 12 for the mid. I went back to 6 on the mids for default.  

The driver is 108.5dB on the manufacturer's horn, but you have no idea what it is on your horn. Since Al sells both the driver and the horn, he should be able to provide that data.

 

The driver is 8 ohm (not the usual 16), so more power is being delivered, normally 3dB more -- but the network is swamped. 6dB is probably really close to where you are supposed to be. This is why measuring is so important when you start doing this kind of stuff, you have to know what you have.

[guf]

just an subjective observation.  As i pull the speakers out to more of the middle of the room i'm getting a much better center image. Also toeing them in seems to be helping. When i stand up it sounds more of what i'm used too. I'll call it better, maybe better than the sofa "sweet spot". And as i move are the room the sound does a sound  better everywhere compared to my La Scala. BUT i do think what i had before sitting in the very narrow sweet spot was still more engaging.

Mid horn is attenuated  to 12 following AL's advice. 

 

 following everyones advice..... i'm pulling out the measurement equipment.

[guf]

@Deang would my modified AAs from you work in this set up? just curious. 

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, guf said:

As i pull the speakers out to more of the middle of the room i'm getting a much better center image. Also toeing them in seems to be helping. When i stand up it sounds more of what i'm used too.

You're describing the case where you're trying to increase the direct/reflected ratio of the loudspeakers in the room.  This is typical of loudspeakers having full-range directivity--like Belles, La Scalas, Khorns, Jubs, and MEHs.  The downside is that by pulling the loudspeakers away from the walls, you're also killing off bass response.  Probably adding midrange/treble absorption and moving the Belles back toward their prior locations nearer the walls is a better solution that doesn't kill bass response.

 

The comment about standing up to get better imaging, etc. more than likely has to do with your floor covering and/or your couch needs more damping due to reflections around the listening position.  Same comment about adding a little absorption--like a fuzzy comforter/blanket/quilt on the couch and/or thicker absorption on the floor--applies to this situation.

 

1 hour ago, guf said:

And as i move are the room the sound does a sound  better everywhere compared to my La Scala

This is probably your midrange horn performing better at off-axis angles--just like the newer horns from Klipsch (i.e., K-510, K-402, etc.).  This is a good sign.

 

1 hour ago, guf said:

BUT i do think what i had before sitting in the very narrow sweet spot was still more engaging.

This is more than likely the phase growth of the Belles vs. the La Scalas (at least, it's been my experience that this is the symptom).  This is where measurement in-room is the only way to tell what's occurring.  You can add more absorption all around the room to the most acoustically reflective objects/boundaries, but this issue won't change or go away until you flatten the phase response more.

 

Chris

[guf]

thanks @ChrisA  so much for taking the time to write all this.  

If i had belles and went to Lascala  would a lot of what you said be the same?   or if i went to a the bigger klipsch horn instead of the eliptrac 400?   it sounds like I probably had a lot of these problems before, this is not just because i "upgraded? "And to your point the only way to tell is to take measurements before and after?  The placement has made the biggest difference. They are basically in the same place as my La Scalas. i liked the idea of having a slightly less deep speaker to tuck them in a little but pulling them out from the walls give me more of the sound i'm used to.  I have external subs. All of my Klipsch speakers i preferred away from the walls. I could never get rid of the boomyiness.  

 

And if i go active ALL of my problems go away? 

[rplace]

23 minutes ago, guf said:

And if i go active ALL of my problems go away? 

 

No that is just the start of a whole new world of "problems". I'm kidding, going the active route has been the most interesting thing I've done with audio in 10+ years. Note I did not say fun but interesting. Great learning experience for me. I'm really enjoying it. So far very time consuming. To me the speakers and crossovers have become like Legos vs. a black box you sick wires into and music comes out.

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, guf said:

If i had belles and went to Lascala  would a lot of what you said be the same?   or if i went to a the bigger klipsch horn instead of the eliptrac 400?   it sounds like I probably had a lot of these problems before, this is not just because i "upgraded? "

The common theme of the K-400, K-550, K-600, and K-700 midrange horns is that they don't have the same off-axis coverage vs. frequency as other more recently designed horns.  Sounds like you'd probably be wanting to change the midrange horn out any way that you go.  You've chosen an Elliptrac horn, but the same sort of upgrade is also apparent with the K-510, and to a greater extent, the K-402 horn.

 

The issue of flattening the phase response to improve stereo imaging, listening involvement, perceived bass response, etc., that I've talked about are related to the crossover design.  Unfortunately, higher order filters are more of a problem, not less.  Older Klipsch Heritage crossovers use first order filters, which produces the lowest phase growth from high frequencies to low frequencies.  The best sounding loudspeakers,in my experience, not only keep the phase as flat as possible, but also the drivers are time aligned to each other, unlike the K-77 tweeter to the K-400/K-500/K-500/K-700 midrange drivers, and the same midrange horns time aligned to the bass bins--particularly the horn-loaded bass bins. 

 

This is where DSP crossovers can make a big difference because they can time align all three drivers/horns in the fully horn-loaded Heritage series (Khorns, La Scalas, Belles) via digital delay of the higher frequency channels relative to the lower frequency channels.  While you can correct the tweeter/midrange misalignment by moving the tweeter backwards on top of the top hats, the midrange/bass bin misalignment remains because of the distance the midrange horn/driver has to move backward to correct this lower frequency time misalignment (due to the longer wavelengths involved).  And it turns out that the midrange/horn-loaded bass bin alignment has a great deal to do with this improved sound of the loudspeaker, i.e., below 1000 Hz. 

 

1 hour ago, guf said:

All of my Klipsch speakers i preferred away from the walls. I could never get rid of the boominess.

Have you looked at putting double-thickness Owens-Corning 703 bass traps across one or more corners or wall-floor/wall-ceiling?  (They can be hidden from view oftentimes.) This will absolutely control the 100-200 Hz reverberation time in-room which is responsible for boominess.  Standard absorption panels will lack effectiveness at these frequencies, which will allow you to completely control the boominess. 

 

Chris

[guf]

i

2 hours ago, Chris A said:

 

 

Have you looked at putting double-thickness Owens-Corning 703 bass traps across one or more corners or wall-floor/wall-ceiling?  (They can be hidden from view oftentimes.) This will absolutely control the 100-200 Hz reverberation time in-room which is responsible for boominess.  Standard absorption panels will lack effectiveness at these frequencies, which will allow you to completely control the boominess. 

 

Chris

if you look at my pictures the whole front wall, and both corners are  covered in bass traps, and behind my listening position. I also have some at the first reflection points.  They are from gik, maybe they use corning 703. I still prefer them pulled away from the front wall and side walls. if you are telling me that the sound stage and imaging will improve my moving them into the corners i'd be willing to try. I'm be more likely to take the swarm approach or a pair of dual OB subs. Maybe just because the other forums I read suggest that. IDK?  i guess it all comes to to measuring to see what's best. 

thanks for the thorough explanation. 

 

[MechEngVic]

11 hours ago, guf said:

thats an option but i should give it more than 24 hours before i give up.    yeah I am a "tinkerer" cars, trucks, home, food... whatever.   Every time I modded the la scalas i like them better.  

 

 

I think you answered your own question with your opening statement, "I had my system really dialed in". I'm sure that didn't happen in a day or two. Don't give up, keep tinkering, you'll eventually get a "dialed in" sound from the new setup.

[Schu]

Be careful what/where your search leads you... like others in here, I've heard and judge systems that were impressive, extremely focused and.... FLAT.

 

[guf]

approaching the 24 hour mark.... Things have been much better. Like if i was at this point last night i probably would not have posted.  the more aggressive toe in and time aligning the tweeter has helped. I'm sure i have all the problems @Chris A was talking about but at least they are familar sounding problems. The sound is much larger and i'm pretty sure I can improve on it. 

[Panelhead]

  Try some golf balls. Much better sound quality than tennis shoes. 

[guf]

39 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

  Try some golf balls. Much better sound quality than tennis shoes. 

dude they are running shoes! 

 

update....

 

So I never mentioned that I had only installed only one of the Kappa woofers and had the original in the other cabinet.  Maybe I'm imagining it but the center image is so perfect  now  that both are installed. I'm into the first record. I guess i didn't think they were that different. Could that have an impact?  on the over all sound stage? 

[Deang]

21 hours ago, guf said:

@Deang would my modified AAs from you work in this set up? just curious. 

 

No, that net is based on a 16 ohm driver with a different sensitivity.