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Home Theater Build Out - need advice


schwock5
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Starting my home theater man cave build out next week.

I'm having a plumber move my hot water tank to get the most ideal space and then the HVAC guy in to reroute some duct work to maximize ceiling space and add a vent into the room.

Before even getting to insulation and soundproofing after the framing, for the HVAC, any tips or advice?

Looking to reduce sound transmission through the duct work to other rooms, minimize noise of the vent itself in the room, and just all around tips to be looking out for to do this right the first time.

If i want to fully reduce noise leakage in and out and have an air tight door to the room do i also need an air return? how does that complicate things and what's needed then to avoid noise escaping / entering?

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Thx!

 

Can anyone advise about soundproofing? I think i'll be doing fiberglass insulation where i can, then mass loaded vinyl, sound clip, hat channel, and 2 5/8 gypsum with green glue.

But my question is 1 of the walls i concrete (and the floor). is this necessary for the concrete wall? to maximize space (and if i want to mount a TV), on the concrete wall can it just be regular studs with MLV? or maybe space the studs out 1 inch from the concrete to create the gap?

 

for the floor, if i use drycore and some vinyl wood cover, is that enough, or would vibrations go through the concrete to studs?

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On 12/18/2019 at 4:49 PM, schwock5 said:

Thx!

 

Can anyone advise about soundproofing? I think i'll be doing fiberglass insulation where i can, then mass loaded vinyl, sound clip, hat channel, and 2 5/8 gypsum with green glue.

But my question is 1 of the walls i concrete (and the floor). is this necessary for the concrete wall? to maximize space (and if i want to mount a TV), on the concrete wall can it just be regular studs with MLV? or maybe space the studs out 1 inch from the concrete to create the gap?

 

for the floor, if i use drycore and some vinyl wood cover, is that enough, or would vibrations go through the concrete to studs?

It depends on budget and time conditions to complete your project. The simple answer is that more mass equates to more damping. If you did not add the double 5/8 Gypsum with green glue between the sheets on the concrete wall, then you could potentially face anomalous behavior with frequencies that resonant, typically bass at louder levels. For space saving, perhaps try steel studs and 1/2 In sheet of Quietrock Sheetrock. The biggest issue in my opinion is if you have a vapor barrier or not. Is this a new home build where the builder left a vapor barrier on the walls? If so, then use that barrier to save costs and stud the wall as you normally would but use the metal studs since it’s only one wall...it might give you at the most 1/2 back, and that depends on the thickness of the vapor barrier. If you need to add a vapor barrier, then you have many options from Lowe’s or Home Depot and they are much thinner than what the home builder left on the wall. 
 

The concrete floor should not resonate at all from playing music or watching movies unless you have multiple megawatt subs. I could only think that one would worry about vibrations if the slab is thin or an older build. Then, yes, adding a noise absorption vinyl pad or something on the floor will help, but that depends on what material you use for the floor. I used bamboo and the glue I used was a three in one, adhesive, vapor barrier, and noise absorbing....which means very expensive. 

 

You need to think about what’s important you and the family, and your budget, because these will drive your decisions. My first stated was spray foam insulation under the joists and the doing the dog walk test above, could hardly hear the dog nails after that, haha. Then added a whole bunch more, and costs added up, but we have a listening and home theater room that is quiet outside and nice sounding inside. Good luck.

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concrete wall is bare, i'd have to add the vapor barrier myself after the insulation and before the MLV.

very old house but re-done in 2006. Basement wasn't really touched,

It's a duplex for all intents and purposes, shared basement, but there's a wall up separating our halves.

I'd be putting studs again on my side to separate the sound, or may take down my side of the wall to see what kind of studs are already there and just piggy back off those to save space.

 

for the concrete wall, i think i forgot to mention i'd still do DD+GG, just forgo the sound isolation clip and hat channel, but didn't know how that would effect.

i guess i could do a sound test after the MLV and see how that's working and if i needed a lot more.

 

it does seem like any and all soundproofing materials/options are pretty pricey and add up VERY quick, i can see this being half the cost of the entire project!

but i'd rather play it as safe as possible up front then have to try and go back and add more in later.

 

When the framer does his thing, i've seen some articles about dampening pads above and below the frame as well, should I be looking into that as well?

 

The kitchen is above the room, so dampening footsteps and preventing sound from going up is most important, there's also HVAC in the room i need to figure out if it will cause an issue.

i'm looking to get an SVS PB200 Proo (was initially looking at the PB 3000, but the room is small and maybe with the 2000 i could go dual).

While there's no concern about sound down, it was just concern about vibration of the concrete resonating the frame.

 

there's just so many options and so much info out there.

 

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Yeah, I know. It’s overwhelming the things you have to account for when designing or retrofitting a listening space to make it accommodating for your goals, fit in your budget, and maintain peace and harmony with family outside the room when you are jamming out to music or watching some intergalactic space movie really loud. Since it’s an old house and your doing this project under the kitchen I would suggest that you concentrate on the ceiling as bass will make the dishes and chinaware vibrate immensely and the sound will propagate through the ceiling into the kitchen and other adjoining rooms. If the joists are open and you have enough space, think about doing about 5 inches of spray foam (estimating no more than 12-1500), Roxul  Safe and sound is about $54 at Lowe’s, instead of MLV on ceiling, do resilient channel, and Quietrock sheet rock sheet as it’s less of a hassle to add that mass to the ceiling than MLV and drywall together which is essentially Quietrock, two pieces of drywall with a vinyl center substrate holding the two pieces together. If you have a good quote for the MLV and regular Sheetrock, than move out on that as you stated for the other walls testing the results of MLV and your double drywall with green glue on the walls. Remember, you want to prevent sound from traveling up and sealing the ceiling with the method I described helps a lot. You don’t have to do Quietrock on the rest of the walls because the costs involved but the double drywall with green glue gives you nearly the same effect. Don’t forget to squeeze green glue along all seams, outlet boxes, anywhere there is a channel where air permeates and can cause sound to travel behind the drywall assemblies eventually going upwards. 
 

1. Draw out on paper and put your lighting and power outlets and determine how much of each you will need. Do you need dedicated 20 amp circuits for heavy amp draw equipment such as large subs and amps. These need to be factored in when the contractor does the drywall. If contractor is one in the same fine, but make sure the contractor pulls permits, usually a general construction permit for a home. You can save money by pulling permits yourself. If you have windows then the county usually will want the window to be clear of obstructions, and if plumbing is in there, it will also have to be inspected. I pulled my own permits and saved about $500. 

 

2. Look at ceiling noise abatement (calculate costs x labor etc) for each method Quietrock vs double drywall and MLV. In each scenario I would budget spray foam and Roxul for ceiling. Put this into your budget calculator to see how this affects your overall budget. Remember, you can splurge in some places, and save money in other areas to keep within your budget. 
 

3. Experiment with studding wall (either metal or wood, metal is less thick, but costs more) and double drywall with green glue, and MLV (make an assembly first and test noise transmission or transfer (a-little radio played up against assembly will do the trick). But this test is for noise and not bass per se. Dampening pads might be a good thing, but what are the labor costs to accommodate them when framing besides the costs of the dampers? Resilient channel on the ceiling as a minimum would be very similar in nature, but it is also an extra step of screwing into the joists and the labor and costs for the channel itself. 

 

4. HVAC noise and duct work can be problematic.... look at https://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/hvac/ for duct wrapping ideas. 

 

5. Don’t forget to ascertain your vapor barrier requirements. 

 

6. At the end of the day, you can spend thousands and thousands to make a perfect room, but in reality, you need to address what’s most important to you within your means and time constraints so that your reasonably happy with the end result without breaking the bank. And don’t forget, no matter what you do, it’s going to be better than what you have now. It’s good that you are asking these questions now. Also, if your into it, and if your adding crown molding in the ceiling during the build, you can add programmable led lighting in the molding to give light affect to your newly makeover room. It’s easier to do now than afterwards. Good luck.
 

 

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@schwock5, IMO, you are getting excellent advice from @audioquest4life, and others, and you already know a lot. 

 

Did anyone mention staggering the seams when you put up your two layers of gypsum board with green glue?

 

:rolleyes:During most of my life, there was a distinct difference between "damping" and "dampening."  But google has convinced me that the battle has been lost, and the one time error, probably first committed on Star Trek, is now not, and the two words can be used interchangeably.  So, we have lost a definition once again, as we did in the cases of "factoid," "overachiever," "schizophrenia," "negative reinforcement," "Hi Fi," "stereophonic," "RMS," "unconscious," "subsonic," "widescreen," "Christian," "anarchism," "professional," and, no doubt, dozens of others.:blush2:  But, I politely decline to speak of an amplifier's "dampening factor."  That's O.K., in my parents' generation google was a guy named Barney who had very big eyes, and probably dampened his bed.

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A lot of good info here, thanks guys! Besides the frame I think everything afterwards is going to be DIY. Dont need 20amp (let's be realistic here guys....we're running Klipsch). I'll probably have all the lights on one circuit and everything else on the other.

 

The cieling was my. Biggest concern (not only keeping noise from escaping from stopping noise /footsteps from a over from coming down. Cant do much about the flooring on the first floor so it's really up to what I do at the joist.

 

I'm guessing these are completely out of the question for cable management /routing?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078GH44BY/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_tqH.DbXNGDZE7

 

 

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I have some setup at my analog rig running from the AV rack in the utility room, about 70 feet of wires for just in case moments when I need to use AV source and run through my analog rig. Those type of cable pass throughs are great because they allow bundles of speaker and AV cables to be run easily without a flush mount AV plate. But, they are holes and make sure that you have sound insulation running behind that plate and the cable runs....you can still punch cables up or down if you snake the cables through whatever pocket is behind the drywall. You can also use external channel conduit but who wants to ruin the view in such a nice room? 
 

Look at these noise abatement solutions for junction boxes and AC outlets:

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Fire-Rated-Acoustical-Putty/dp/B018WQ4D7O
 

https://www.atsacoustics.com/ats-acoustics-putty-pads.html
 

Even though it might not seem like a big sound issue, it can lead to sound leakage. These can also eliminate cold air from entering the room through the outlets and light switches during a cold snowy or rainy day. Every little bit helps. 

 

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schwock5: Coincidentally, my son and I are in the midst of building his home theater as well. I'd built my own back in 2004, when resources weren't nearly as abundant as they now are. Since then, I've learned many things about theater design, construction and materials. Being able to find items that appear to accomplish the same feat with far less expense is a huge asset. One of these items would be in respect to sound-blocking, mass-loaded, roll membrane for use on walls and ceiling etc. This type of material can be quite costly. However, I have discovered that if one substitutes GAF Tri-Ply APP Smooth roll roofing membrane 3 ft. x 33 ft. (100 sq. ft.) for the expensive "home theater mat" and combine it with the use of Owens Corning Thermafiber Fire and Sound Guard Mineral Wool Insulation (Batt 15 in. x 47 in.) instead of the "Pink Stuff", the same isolation may be achieved. A 100 square foot roll of Tri-Ply can be had at places like Home Depot for only about $69 and the Mineral Wool insulation is also available at places like Home Depot for about $42 for 10 sheets, however if you purchase 15 packs or more, they will discount it to about $29 per pack of 10; a huge savings! Fill your walls and ceiling with the appropriate amount of mineral wool and then cover the studs, wall-to-wall with the tri-ply using a pneumatic staple gun and then drywall over it. You may be amazed by the amount of sound blocking that occurs for so much less money! Be sure to cover all membrane seams and holes around electrical outlets with Gorilla Duct Tape. In my experience, the pink insulation does almost nothing to effect sound, relative to blocking or absorption. Mineral Wool is "da bomb"!

As far as the ceiling is concerned, rather than drywall, we're using Sonex Harmoni, melamine foam ceiling tiles on a 2' x 2' grid. It's 2 inches thick, comes in numerous colors including mat black, is fireproof and absorbs about 90% of the sound that hits it. It's what I used when building my theater in 2004 and now our son's. The downside: Sonex isn't cheap, especially if you order it with the sound-block agent ProSPEC Composite, incorporated on the back. But nothing else of which I am aware, seems to work as effectively.

Finally, the last thing I'll mention is that we are doing a slightly-different design in our son's theater than was done in my own: We skewed the side walls front-to-back a total of 8". What this accomplished is a non-perpendicularity at the front and rear corners of the room in order to reduce any standing wave problems in the bass. The testing we've done thus far with two 15" Klipsch subwoofers up front, prove that our design does work! At last spring's Klipsch Pilgrimage in Hope, Arkansas, I had run my idea by several of Klipsch's engineers and they all agreed it was a good idea as their own manufacturing plant's demo room also has skewed walls and sounds amazing! So, to clarify, our son's theater is more narrow on the screen wall and wider on the rear wall, similar to a isosceles trapezoid.

I realize this is a lot of information, but I hope you are able to gain some help from some of my suggestions. Best of luck! -Glenn

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Thank you so much! i was just pricing out the ceiling as a test using MLV, isolation clips, had channels, double drywall, green glue, and rockwool and it was ABSURD!

I've been watching a lot of you tube videos and seems most people recommend what i just stated, however, a lot do say that mineral wool only yields an extra 1-2 STC over pink fiberglass and isn't worth the added cost. i've been watching a lot of "acoustic fields" as well (seems like i'm getting a college education in sound theory! he actually straight up says rockwool and greenglue are BS. I think what i need to do is once framing is up get my 2 fronts up, play a test tone at reference volume, and upstairs and on the other sides of the walls measure the volume at the different frequencies to see what i actually need to target and how much. With all of the "literature" there doesn't really seem to be a real world guide of what specifically works best for which frequencies, and what combinations yields what results.  I'd love to see a test of drywll 1/2 vs 5/8 vs 2 sheets vs greenglue with all combinations of insulation and MLV to see real world effect on DB drop at different frequencies and cost comparisons to see what yields to most efficient results!

 

For the Sonex, howdoes the total cost of a ceiling compare to isolation clips/hat channel/double drywall w/green glue?

 

I'll definitely look into all your recommendations! Once framing is done i'll run my tests and provide here for more feedback of what i need to target!

 

The basement area i'm finishing is 12 x 14, however, the the front wall is under where the bay windows are, so the front wall is actually a trapezoid.

I'm still playing with layout if i want my front "in the trapezoid" or the trapezoid as the back wall.

 

1 wall is concrete (with a few feet above ground with a window) concern on this wall is blocking out outside noise from the street.

2 of the walls are walls put up to split the basement in the duplex. i'm going to remove the drywall on my side as i assume there are already studs there and i don't want to encroach an extra 6 inches into my side by putting up extra studs if some already exists.

the last wall is a wall we're putting up the split the basement on my side to the unfinished part. the ground is concrete.

 

i think for now the question for framing is does the framing need any specific method to help improve the soundproofing?

i've seen some where it's put on top of the subfloor to reduce vibration, so at this point looking for guidance on  he framing first to do it right the first time.

for the concrete wall can studs just be spaced slightly away from the concrete to isolate that wall? i don't want to use clips/channels on that wall since i do want to mount a TV there potentially.

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https://www.amazon.com/Building-Recording-Studio-Jeff-Cooper/dp/0916899004 

At you local library, or used for about $25.  The new price is ridiculous ...

This book is oriented toward building a home studio.  Same principles for a listening room.

 

We used it to build a smallish listening room in our old home.  We had floating floor, etc, but the deep loud bass from Klipschorns went through anyway.  In our newer home, we used a simpler build.

 

I recommend a combination of absorption and diffusion.  Don't over-deaden.

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schwock5: Ironically, our son's theater is also 12'w x 14' deep!! I cannot agree more with garyrc not to over-deaden the room. My own room as well as my son's appear to have just the right amount of "echo-time" in them using the methods I mapped out in my earlier post to you. The Sonex tiles are the finish of the ceiling. Ours tiles are matte black as well as our front walls (painted drywall). We've discovered that going to black not only makes the screen "pop" (especially the colors), it eliminates any distractions from the viewer's eyes and the viewer no longer is able to perceive the room's physical dimensions while viewing in a darkened atmosphere, thereby giving viewers the perception of total envelopment into the movie: It makes one feel they are sharing the environment displayed on the screen (a feeling rather difficult to explain)! As for Atmos speakers, in each area you plan to place one, instead of the Sonex tile, you substitute a 1/2" thick, 2' x 2' sheet of MDF painted in your tile's color with the appropriate template hole cut into it in which to pace your speaker. If you require more isolation, you can do as we have done: Build backing boxes for your in-wall and ceiling speakers out of 1/2" MDF or a good grade of plywood, glue, screw (or brad nail) and stuff (and staple) with insulation, as you would any speaker box.

 

As you've discovered, it is sometime quite difficult to believe some things that are posted on-line. However, although I don't know the exact specs of the Owens Corning mineral wool insulation, I can tell you this stuff really does work! I'd be willing to say that when used in conjunction with the roofing membrane I used, the combination offers MANY times more isolation that the pink stuff. In a 2x4  stud wall, you'd need one layer of mineral wool. In a 2x6 stud wall, most-likely two layers. We used three layers in the ceiling joists. Another benefit: It's fireproof! We did not use any type of unusual wall framing in our rooms with respect to improvement of isolation. Because both of our rooms reside in basements, we did nothing to isolate the concrete floor. As far as studding, we did place our wooden-studded walls an inch or two away from the basement concrete or cinder block walls in order to isolate them from the structure. This distance of course varied on the skewed side walls. In my own theater, the right side wall abuts to an adjacent utility/laundry room that is quite noisy. For that wall, I built two staggered-studded walls that do not touch each other and ran membrane and double drywall (without clips or green glue) on both sides. I approximate the resultant sound level drop to be perhaps -20 to -25 db.


I'm sorry that I'm unable tell you how well the Sonex tiles perform vs. the clips/hat channel/double drywall w/green glue method you'd mentioned as I do not have the basis for performing such a test. Perhaps the vendor you would go through to buy the Sonex tiles has this information? I bought mine through a vendor here in Michigan: Memtech. But, I can tell you that yes, these products do provide you the absorption you seek without added external tiles or devices. That's the whole point in going to this method. And the few, Inserted MDF panels for adding the Atmos speakers or recessed lighting fixtures seem to be of little consequence acoustically. Note: we added a narrow, self-stick foam to the bottom-outer edge of the MDF so, as it rests in the ceiling grid track, it does not vibrate.

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Again thank you all! for the atmos i have 4 5800-ii in ceiling and i was going to probably just get the metal backing box that klipsch has for them as well to simplify.

if using MLV or the roofing membrane do i just cut a square into that for these speakers to go or should i keep that area of the membrane loose and fitted over the enclosure so it's an uncut sheet? I'll provide pictures of the room and as soon as i can.

 

so for your walls you just did insulation and 2 sheets of drywall? and the ceiling instead of drywall just used the Sonex?

was your drywall 1/2 or 5/8?

 

i've never actually used acoustic panels before since i was in an apartment, but now that i'll have a dedicated theater once i get everything setup i will be looking into it.

if the sonex takes care of the ceiling then i'd just have to focus on the walls (floor will have a thick rug).

 

i was looking fat matte black or the dark grey color, behind the TV / fronts even though i was going to paint dark i was thinking of hanging some heavy curtains to reduce reflections and provide a theater environment.

 

Garcy, def will look into the book! i love to learn and this stuff just fascinates me so i'm always game to learn more especially now that i can take this to the next level.

 

if i did use the metal backing enclosure for the in-ceiling would i attach that to the metal grid? if it was on the joist i'd have a 1-2 inch gap i think to the back of the ceiling tile ... 

 

again i have time before we hit this stage, need the plumber to move the hot water tank and then get framing in order and electrical / wires run. but seems like the sonex would cost as much / if not more than the other method as well. 

 

in a real world example what's the equivalent of a 20-25db drop?

in a 12x14 room if playing at reference volume at the MLP what would you hear on the other side of the wall, above the ceiling?

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I'm watching this thread with interest as I am considering enlarging a 14'x13.5' room to 26'x13.5 to make a larger space for all my gear/media.  Just ordered the book suggested by Gary (used from Amazon $27).

 

Wondering out loud if there is a formula for width vs length?  Will have a rather high vaulted ceiling too.

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schwock5: All drywall used was 1/2" thick. Walls are wooden studs with mineral wool insulation. The roofing membrane was then stapled to the studs wall-to-wall and ceiling-to-floor with any joints taped with Gorilla Duct Tape. Then, in most cases, one layer of 1/2" drywall was screwed to the studs on top of the membrane. The only wall that used a double-layer of drywall was on the stagger-studded, double wall adjacent the utility room. There is a solid composite, oak veneer door in the doorway between the utility room and the theater. That door has exterior, bulb-type weather stripping on the top and side gaps. Even more importantly, there is an industrial noise brush sweep on the door's lower edge that blocks sound from transmitting under the door to the theater when it is closed. Note: Leave the door open when not using your theater so the appliances inside can have a full air exchange. When watching a movie (with the door closed) at what I'd call a real life reference volume, it would be nearly impossible to hear the water heater, furnace, washer or dryer running through the wall. It's important to stuff the ceiling joists over the wall with mineral wool and to use the membrane wherever possible. Treat sound as it it was a liquid, so to speak; if it could leak, you will hear it!

 

The metal speaker enclosures should work fine. However, I discovered not all of Klipsch's metal enclosures shown on their site are still available for purchase. This is why we built our own. Also, ours were much cheaper. Regardless of which type enclosure you may use, I recommend wrapping all of back and sides with membrane using glue, tape or an other method. You want to contain that sound within the "envelope" of the theater.

 

If installing Sonex (yes it's very expensive, but effective), I also recommend stuff the ceiling joists full of mineral wool. We used 3 layers and held it in place with the metal stripping referred to as "plumber's tape" across the bottom of the joists about every 3 feet. We wrapped self-adhesive pipe wrap tape, that is made to block pipe noise, on any exposed drain pipes from tubs, showers, toilets, etc. Then, we button-nailed membrane across all ceiling joists thereby covering our insulation and all HVAC duct work in the ceiling. The duct work we placed into the walls to ventilate the theater (heating/cooling and cold air returns) was vinyl flex duct hose that has an insulated sleeve over it. Using this instead of rigid steel ducting tends to transmit less sound from the theater into the rest of the home's duct work. The grid holding the Sonex tile hangs just below all of this with at least enough clearance so the tiles and membrane do not touch each other.

 

Sub bass sound is definitely the hardest thing to block and I'm sorry to say that it's nearly impossible to fully eliminate it. You may not hear it at the other end of the house, but you're going to feel it to some degree!

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On 12/31/2019 at 6:40 AM, Tarheel said:

I'm watching this thread with interest as I am considering enlarging a 14'x13.5' room to 26'x13.5 to make a larger space for all my gear/media.  Just ordered the book suggested by Gary (used from Amazon $27).

 

Wondering out loud if there is a formula for width vs length?  Will have a rather high vaulted ceiling too.

Room proportions.  May as well get it the best shape possible, although some people don't believe in "Magic Proportions," others do!

 

26 x 13.5 might be too nearly 2:1 in proportion. 

 

Paul Klipsch created a Dope from Hope on room proportions.  See the second page with Dr. Bolt's proportion deciding contour.  It takes ceiling ht into account, too.   Try this link.  http://assets.klipsch.com/file/Dope_680201_v9n1.pdf?_ga=2.47855328.633975349.1577944979-1885359904.1548711589

 

If it doesn’t work, google Dope from Hope vol 9, No. 1, 1 February 1968

 

There are more modern approaches, so dig around on google.

 

Diffusers are practically a must, IMO

 

There are several people on the forum who know a lot about acoustics.  Two of them are Artto and Chris A.

 

@schwock5 , @artto , @Chris A

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For an article on the subject of relative room dimensions for better low frequency acoustics, and an example of reading the desired room proportions chart (figures 12--15, depending on overall room volume), see the following: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/19799-arttos-klipschorn-room/&do=findComment&comment=2443164

 

Chris

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