Craving Bass, do I have a problem?

[ajgb72]

Ok, to start off (this might seem to be a rant to some of you people) I will tell you about all of my speaker upgrades. My first speakers came with my computer, rellly bad, never even used them for music. Then when I got my second computer, I got some multimedia harman kardons, they were pretty nice, i blew them out becuase i had the bass set too high. Then I "borrowed" a mini system from my dad to use for my computer, it was pretty nice, then I upgraded to a bigger mini system and the bass was crazy! Then when my dad wanted his second system back, I got a sherwood reciever (really cheap) and two bose bookshelf speakers (yea yeah, I know, they suck) and that wasn't really an upgrade, and I became more interested in audio, so in June I got the Promedia 5.1 system, it was completely amazing, I could not get over how nice it sounded compared to all of my other systems. Now I still have the reciever/bose combo, and I want to upgrade it. I was thinking about adding a ksw-15 (nice for my proce range), but even then, I think I will not have enough bass. With each upgrade, I am amazed with it for a few months, then I want MORE, I just can't have enough bass. So, does this happen with any of you? Or is it a disease?!

[Doc Holiday]

i know that you like bass a lot, but this is always important to remember the quality of the bass. I would give up a lot of kick for acuracy bass, tight fast bass is where it is at. If i were you I would stay away from the ksw series in general, but even more so any 15' sub, personally i refuse to have any sub over 10' because the bass becomes so slow and inaccurate its a joke. If i were you i would take these to options. One step up and buy the rsw 10' its not to much more than the ksw 15 online and stuff, go to acousticsounddesign.com to get prices, te second option is to go with a different brand ie paridigm or infinity if you don't want to spend the money. The only thing i have to say is stay away from big drivers. a quality small sub will go a lot longer in sound quality then a big one. The other thing is to make sure you hook up your sub through the pre out with at least monster bass 550 if not the z series...

[prodj101]

damn doc, you were such a badass in tombstone, but now you are against big and powerful subs? a properly build large driver subwoofer is not slow like you claim. My RSW-15 keeps up just fine. Also, room acoustics affect this. I would never buy anything less than 12 inches. even 12 inches is still kinda in the wimp range to me. anyone here will tell you that 15 and 18 inch subs don't sound slow if they are high quality. But back to your question. I would stray away from the KSW series as well. I would take the RSW-10 over it. It just is alot better. but if you could, it would be alot better to go to the 12. And yeah, I remember the days when I thought my midiland system was absolutly amazing. with its 50 watts to power the 6.5 inch sub. of course than, it was the best thing I had known at the time. that was back when I thought bose was a good company(a full 2 years ago, lol!). But anyway, here is my history of equipment. My first system was a Midiland 2.1 system, with a 10 watt subwoofer and 4 watts to sats. Than, I got really fancy and got a Midiland 4.1 system, which was basicaly the same, just a little bigger. Next, I got even more slick, with a Cambridge soundworks 5.1 system, which had a whole 20 watts for the sub . Than came the Midiland. I still enjoy that system, as it was my first step towards a real system. It had dolby digital processing, and several ins and outs, and 50 watts for the sub. I think it rivals alot of home theatre in a box systems actually. And than after that I made the big leap to real home theatre. I bought the cheapest pioneer around, and got sony speakers for the front, and used some of my old optimus speakers for the back. And thats when I started saving up for my JBL-PB12. Now this sub was a monster to me at the time. 12 inch driver, 250 watt amp, and weighing in at a massive 45 pounds. It was actually really nice, maybe another thing for you to consider? I think it beats the KSW-15 for sound quality, and looks! And than, about 7 months later, came my Klipsch system. Which consisted of SF-2 fronts, SF-1 rears, and a SC-1 center. Now I was getting into the good stuff . I still love that speaker set. but anyway. Than after another year of saving, came the RSW-15. And all I can say about that is I won't need a new sub for a long time.

[TheEAR]

Hold it

You refuse to have any sub with a driver over 10"! LOL

I refuse to compromise and my Aerial SW12 whips any sub with a driver less then a 12".Its speed and punch is as fast and hits as dry as the best compact REL's.And my Velodyne HGS18 is nothing slow,it can keep pace with the best dynamic and electrostatics.No boom,just clean bass.And how about the Revel B15,LOL it has all the slam you could wish for,and then some.

And for those who want maximum punch and impact,fast bass.The JBL Ti-K is a winner,and it does use a 15" woofer,its as fast as it gets.

Subs dont have to reproduce midrange or the upper range.This said a well designed 18" driver can bring accurate sub bass home.No need to settle for multiple 10" drivers.

[rjb294]

You might have a hearing problem in the near future!

[Dustin B]

That definately is one great audio myth that doesn't seem to want to die. Smaller driver means "musical" bass. Couldn't be more wrong.

As the others have said there are many excellent 15 and 18 inch subs out there. Below 100hz there are many other parameters that have to be considered as a whole in releation to sound quality; and cone size is really low on the list. Now cone size does have a direct relation ship to Sd which has a direct relationship to Vd. This won't affect sound quality that much, but Vd will determine how loud the sub can get down low. The 10" and the 15" may both sound great when implemented properly at 90dB, but up the volume on a passage to over 110dB and the 10" will have problems. 10" drivers (unless used in multiples, 3 or more) simply can't move enough air to make a good sub. Personally I don't think I'll ever use anything smaller than a 15" driver in any sub project I embark upon (unless I'm building a bass horn, then a 12" might be ok).

If you want to stop craving more bass. Do this:

http://t-3.cc/users/kloneaudio/page13-12Shiva1.html

But with this driver instead of the Shiva:

http://www.acoustic-visions.com/tumult.htm

And power it with a few Crown K2 amps.

If over 60L of Vd can't keep you from craving more bass, you'll be deaf in a short period of time.

Now in reality the above would be pretty much insane. You'd likely be more than happy with a 4 of these drivers:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=9428728&St=8456&St2=-60279683&St3=74253110&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=118185&DID=7

And a QSC RMX850. This would toast a KSW15 in sound quality and output. The RSW15 won't be much competition for it either. Best of all it will run you <$800 total to complete, if you have the tools and an appropriate room. If you can find a good 200Wx2 used amp stable into a 4ohm load for less than $300, you can drop the price even further.

[fini]

OOPS! Did it again...thought this was Fish Lover's Anonymous Forum. Never mind.

Emily Latella

[TheEAR]

Dustin,

Hey hey the Tumult is out!Look at this driver I am going to have to order two!WOW

I am going to get back to building soon,I will have a two week vacation.Better build a DIY monster

Awesome,this is what I want to see in a driver,great specs,rugged construction and massive motor structure.All it takes to whip some vicious sub bass. The Tumult is a winner(I can tell from the specs and looks of this monster).

[Dustin B]

Down around 20hz it would take almost 3 Tempests to equal it Over 5L of very linear Vd. Have been told by Dan Wiggins to expect with 1500W and an appropriate LT you could get over ~103dB at 20hz with less than 2%THD from a sealed 16" cube (using 1.5" thick walls).

Did you check the weight. It weighs 48lbs all by its' lonesome.

[TheEAR]

103dB at 20Hz is not much considering the driver capability and amp power one would have to use,a Sunfire Signature can do this.The Tumult should be used in optimal applications,why waste a good thing?

Yes 48lbs is plenty for the driver alone,the active driver Sunfire uses in the Signature is around 40lbs.Most of the weight in the huge magnetic structure.The Velodyne HGS10 also has a gigantic magnetic structure considering its 10" diameter.

[Dustin B]

But I seriously doubt the Sunfire is at anywhere near 2% THD at that level. Also the Sunfire is using a passive radiator, this 16" Tumult cube is a low Q sealed design not a bass reflex. Better than HGS18 performance from a 16" cube for ~$1k is impressive to me.

Go to a 24" cube with a pair of 18" dual spider PRs from Stryke for an 18hz tune and goose it with 1.5kW and the sunfire won't have any hope of keeping up.

[Freak Nasty]

You need some SWS, you need to plug all 16 of them...

[TheEAR]

The Sunfire considering its size is the performance champion.The amp is in the cabinet too.Adire has nothing to match the Sunfire SIg. in a cabinet of the same size and with the amp being also inside the cabinet.

The Tumult is a beast alone in its class,its a super heavy duty 15" woofer designed for larger BIY sub projects.No wonder a big 15" defeats a 12" easy.

And BTW nobody will tell apart a sub with a 2% THD and 10% THD.The human ear is very forgiving of THD below 30Hz.

Freak Nasty,

While you get your 16 "SWS" let me get 16 Mark IV subs. Output will reach a level where plaster cracks and windows are blown.All the Sunfires take even less space!

[Doc Holiday]

Seriously though.... how much bass do you need after a 110 dB sound? Ehh I mean 128 is about the equivalent of a JET.... a 110 dB is a lot of sound. Maybe you might want to get your hearing aid checked out or something? All i am saying is that for the price range that he wants to spend in he is best off getting something smaller and more accurate. You have to agree that the Rsw10 puts the ksw15 to absolute shame. And the sufire sig.. yeah that is amazing for its size. Sorry I don't like to rattle my whole house apart, I mean I actually like to hear something other than bass. Whatever, yeah I was preety bad *** in tombstone. Serisouly you are a child. The first thing you do is bash my name? What were you thinking? fine if you disagree with my opinion thats what a forum is, but its not designed to bash people. But whatever I guess thats the cool thing to do is to act like a 3rd grader. whatever

[Dustin B]

I heard the numbers where just a little higher than 10% when the Sunfire was pushed down in the last octave. Also remember the Tumult will be a fare ways off its' 34mm Xmax in an enclosure this small with 1500W. So in this design it will be extremely linear until the amp starts clipping.

And yes Adire can offer everything in one box. They are planning on offering packages around the Tumult that include either their A750 or A1500 (can't quite do a 16" cube with this amp though) plate amp and a Linkwitz Transform that can be attached to the amp inside the enclosure. 16" cube vs 13" cube, noticably larger yes, but not that much.

This is what the Tumult was designed for. A sealed enclosure using a Linkwitz Transform circuit and lots of power to get loud, very clean bass from a small enclosure. There is a huge thread on HTF all about what people wanted from the driver.

Doc, full dolby reference can as for as much as 121dB at the listening postion from your sub. Mind you 5-10dB below reference is the loudest I'll watch, but still, having some clean headroom over what I'll need is a good thing.

[mike stehr]

On work on a AFB. You don't want to listen to 120, 130 decibels.

And even with cheap foam plugs and the headsets, they don't do a helluva lot of good.

I know that high SPL's of subwoofer frequencies is a lot easier on one than aircraft, but at 120 decibels it's still gonna trash your ears over time.

That day will come when you think your tweeters are rolled off, but the tweeters are fine.....It's your ears that are rolled off!

No crossover will fix that.

[Dustin B]

Agreed. But we are talking about brief peaks here. Human speech range frequencies should never go past 110dB peaks if the system is reference calibrated. Its the 120hz and under that could peak as high as 121dB (our ears can take a lot more bass SPL than human speech range SPL without damage). A typical action movie or two a day at these levels is very unlikely to damage your hearing (especially if it is clean at these levels). But listening to music for hours at a time at sustained levels of over 100dB, that is very dangerous to your hearing. At reference the bulk of a movie should be in the 75-80dB range.

It was my understanding that a jet engine will be up closer to 140dB and will be generating those levels at bass frequencies as well as human speech range frequencies. Very dangerous to your ears.

I wonder if flash bangs that SWAT teams use cause hearing loss. They can go off at 150-170dB, but for a very brief period.

[mike stehr]

"I wonder if flash bangs that SWAT teams use cause hearing loss. They can go off at 150-170dB, but for a very brief period."

I dunno, that's a good question.

I'm certain one would get temporary loss, like when one would hear a loud explosion, when the ears ring really bad.

But would it be permanent?

Seems like you would flatten some celia hairs for good in those ranges.

I had the misfortune of listening to a pair of Fighters taking off backburners on, from about 150 yards back behind.

At the time I wasn't wearing hearing protection at all.

I'm not sure what exact SPL it was, 130? or more?

All I know is your mind says: Get away!! Get away!!

But I didn't experience any loss of hearing that I noticed at the time. but it all adds up over time, I geuss.

I wonder what the SPL is for completely blowing out your eardrums until they bleed with complete loss of hearing?

I'm way off topic, Sorry!

[Soundthought]

225 Decibels.

Deafening.

The equivalent of a blast from a 12" cannon @ 12ft in front & below.

You don't wanna be there.

[Doc Holiday]

All damage to your hearing is pernament. Everytime you hear a ringing in your ears, or it hurt to hear loud sounds, pain through out your ears for no reason..... These are all signs of hearing loss..... once it happens you can never get it back so, i don't know