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New $49 aftermarket K-510 Horn - Anyone Try yet?

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Tractrix or not, with a depth of only 127mm it's next to impossible to properly load the driver down to 500Hz. At best it manages 800Hz, but 1000Hz seems more plausible. The mumbs in the current K510 increase the pathlength (and resistance) and thus provide better loading.

 

I expect the ZXPC 18 X 10 to beat this K510 clone wrt loading and polar response. Last but not least, the throat transition of the 18 X 10 looks a lot better (sometimes a little sanding is required to smooth out imperfections).

 

I am looking forward to Chris' measurements though.

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On 3/16/2020 at 12:37 PM, Pete H said:

What other drivers have you compared these to Dave?  Faital Pro HF200's by any chance?  

The only other driver I have tried is the B&C DE75's I have on hand. I read good stuff about those Faitals but for some reason thought they were discontinued and only want to try things I know I can replace with current production. My experience with 2" drivers is not all that great but I am starting to get more serious.

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Yours look like this (mine)?

B&C DE75-8.JPG

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I am running the 10 x 18 ZXPC horns with HF200s. I am using RF-7 IIIs for bass until I get my Quarter Pies done.

I have a XP-4080, a PLX-1804 for bass and a DIY First Watt F5 for highs running 2 way.

This setup sounds much better than the RF-7s, but I haven't been able to compare it to other speakers.

I am thinking of getting BMS 4592ND coaxes, but I don't know if the improvement is worth the $1000.

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The original DE75 is still a very nice driver, even though it was first introduced in the 1990's. It's a legendary and game-changing B&C product as well, because its "hi-fi sound" was appreciated by big PA companies like EAW, NEXO and Martin Audio. This is a short and interesting interview with B&C's CEO Lorenzo Coppini in which the DE75 is explicitly mentioned.

 

Personally, I prefer the sound of the DE75 to many later B&C drivers with pure Titanium diaphragm (drivers with the suffix -TN) .

Here's a measurement of the DE75 with B&C's ME60 horn (I bought my DE75s for €100 with these horns attached).

There's the usual breakup starting just below 10 kHz, but the resonances are pretty well dampened, as is visible in the waterfall plot.

image.thumb.png.679b1cf7f21a1220194b9f3e5c24f3e4.png

 

For comparison B&C's recent DE95TN attached to the same ME60 horn:

 

image.thumb.png.7b3696d34368ae996ae104caa9f01ed2.png

 

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A highly regarded Dutch PA company called Duran Audio - now part of Harman International - developed some loudspeaker systems using the DE75.

25 years after the introduction, quite a few of these systems are still in use today. Especially the mid-high section is praised for its high fidelity.

The system shown below was removed from the Johan Cruijff ArenA in Amsterdam.

 

260920102699.thumb.jpg.122d1041aca600826308307d30cd5369.jpg260920102700.thumb.jpg.692f12ec08028aca1378c1890fc0615c.jpg260920102706.thumb.jpg.5b0e0b7829e95cf605325cfcff975240.jpg341786962_AxysSource.thumb.png.1ffc791ba0c437c2db50f1b62b5007d6.png

 

 

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3 hours ago, ARX said:

Yours look like this (mine)?

B&C DE75-8.JPG

Label is different but otherwise yes looks the same.  These are good drivers though newer ones have passed them up. I am throwing out all my old 1st gen 510's but keeping the DE75's that were on them.

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This is an Original Klipsch OEM DE75-8P. The "P" refers to Plastic phaseplug. Mine have metal phaseplugs.

 

s-l1600.jpg

 

Newer, or upgraded doesn't always mean better, especially with companies driven by cost efficiency.

B&C introduced TN diaphragms to comply with PA requirements. The (glue of the) original Mylar surrounds tended to melt due to the heat generated inside the gap at sustained high SPL.

 

Depending on the horn used, the FaitalPro Titanium drivers can be crossed around 600Hz, possibly even lower with steep slopes. The B&C drivers with Mylar suspended diaphragms are best crossed >700Hz.

 

Salient detail: Danley exchanged FaitalPro drivers for B&C DE880s in the SH96 (non-HO version), apparently because of a high failure rate.

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Those are the ones I have.

13 hours ago, ARX said:

The (glue of the) original Mylar surrounds tended to melt due to the heat generated inside the gap at sustained high SPL.

I have bought old pro gear that has had resistors so hot they scorched the crossover board and capacitors melted to cute blue silver puddles. Something about the mentality of SLV people that says turn it up and give no thought for stated wattage limits. Had an old LSI once that actually had the woofer catch fire and scorch marks inside the doghouse at the top of the woofer motorboard slot.

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Such (past) practices and habits also contributed to the bad reputation of horn-loaded speakers in general, not to mention the poisoning of visitors from the magical smoke released when yet another TAD Beryllium diaphragm gave up 😵

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2 hours ago, ARX said:

Such (past) practices and habits also contributed to the bad reputation of horn-loaded speakers in general, not to mention the poisoning of visitors from the magical smoke released when yet another TAD Beryllium diaphragm gave up 😵

Beryllium is bad news. I used to do some work for UAH in Huntsville and the Astrophysics lab there too. In the days before there was strict control over toxic things they had a machining job involving Beryllium that was hazard duty pay but no one really thought about it. Every one of those dudes died of cancer induced by Beryllium. First and last time for that kind of work there.

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-Bereyllium is bad news for sure ----EV used to make the EV T35 Diaphragms with Beryllium leads only and it was great for the durability , but the later version , no longer used it  with regular leads

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Reassessing my opinion on these 510's. I still think the 18 x 10 EBay horn is better but have decided that the Klipsch OEM crossover is not salvageable and was the main culprit for bad sound. Set up a pair using the same type of crossovers I had on hand for some KP-450's and that wonderful musical sound I like so much was back. I am concluding that the KP-450 and KPT-456 were designed primarily for house sound and to sound good out in the open. The newer 904 whatevers are made to sound good behind a screen and in a theater environment and not in the open.

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I do have an update on this. I never could get things to sound right and then one day I decided to stick an L-Pad on the 510 + DE75 for the heck of it. It sounds really nice and I will be putting these on every 510 + DE75 combo from now on. Even work well on those old brittle horns so I guess I won't be getting rid of those after all.

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