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Would you put an RP 8000 in a 4x4m size bedroom? Or is it overkill?

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14 minutes ago, willland said:

I am not trying to beat a dead horse but have you experimented more with your SB-2000/RP-160Ms cohesiveness?  Different subwoofer placement, phase, volume matching, input, LPF/HPF?  Sometimes it just take time and patience to get it "right".  When you do, you will know it.

 

Bill

I did the sub crawl and found a spot where it didn’t sound neither boomy nor absent (in a limited area, admittedly, because it’d be obstructive if placed far from the TV unit). I tried fiddling with the settings manually but found that it sounded much better when plugged in the LFE jack, whatever it’s called. 
 

The sub also doesn’t go beyond 180 hz manually. I still don’t understand how it would fix the issue of the sound not being “full” enough. It’s not bad, mind you. But I can see how it could be fuller — a consequence of living with the same setup for a while, perhaps.


How do you think it would add more body to the sound above the frequencies it covers? I’m relatively new at this, as you can probably tell. Maybe I’m missing something. 
 

 

EDIT: perhaps I didn’t sufficiently articulate what I think is missing, originally. It’s becoming clearer as I discuss it with you guys in here. 

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The question is: are there any downsides to using big speakers in a small room (aside from the obvious financial one, of course)? 

 

Not really.

 

But at some point, like my example using Khorns  in an apartment bedroom, it just doesn't do the speaker system any justice. You can't get back far enough to let the sound from the speaker drivers to blend and sound cohesive. The room surfaces are too close to the horns/drivers and undesirable short term reflections interfere, same for where you are sitting listening. While it still "works" and may work better than some cheapo crappo alternative you won't get what you're paying for.

 

Back in the day there was only the Klipsch "Heritage" line although it wasn't called "Heritage". Klipsch offered "unfinished" versions, usually in raw birch. You stained and finished them yourself to save a few bucks. There was even a "decorator" model Khorn - just bare bones.

 

And yeah, looking back on those days I wonder how I managed to afford any of that stuff. I guess it just goes to show that if you really want something you'll find a way (and it doesn't have to be illegal or anything), just a matter of priorities I guess.

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8 minutes ago, Man in the Box said:

I still don’t understand how it would fix the issue of the sound not being “full” enough. It’s not bad, mind you. But I can see how it could be fuller

Possible cancellation issues if the phase and LPF/HPF settings are not "correct".  That alone could contribute to the "thin" sound.

 

Also, if the subwoofer and speakers are not volume matched, the low and mid bass could be over powering the lower midrange of the RPs. 

 

Bill

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9 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

Gary, we’ve interacted before and you’ve always written such thoughtful responses.

Thanks! 

9 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

I measured my room just now and found that it’s not quite perfectly square. There’s about half a feet of difference. Probably doesn’t make a difference, I imagine. 

It may help a bit.

9 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

Here's a question for you: there’s one key advantage to the RP160s: if you listen with your eyes closed, you can’t pinpoint their location. This suggests that they’re interacting with the room relatively well, I imagine. Would the 8000 be overbearing, in this sense? How was your experience with the Klipschorn (so jealous!)?

 

The Klipschorns in the small room

 

If played alone, i.e., one channel at a time, the sound could be pinpointed right at the Khorn, but sounded "BIG."  With two speakers, a mono signal came smack from the center where there was no speaker (then).  When a 2 channel stereo signal in the small room with Khorns, the soundstage/imaging depended on how it was recorded.  Sometimes there were instrumental locations across the field, in, maybe, 7 to 10 positions laterally, along with some depth.  There usually were not loci beyond the two speakers to the sides. Sometimes there were fewer.  One of my favorite recordings, direct to disk, Chrystal Clear recordings "Sonic Spectaculars, "Fanfare for the Common Man," was more or less one big reverberant blob, but strong enough to flap one's pants legs.  There are so many ways to record!  Two mics elevated 12 feet above the orchestra.  That plus a "depth" mic toward the rear of the hall.  Three mics (each with it's own channel -- Mercury, RCA, others).  A mic crammed down the throat of nearly every instrument.  Movie soundtracks with 2 (rare), 3, 4, or 5 tracks (sometimes plus surround -- but usually not, except for effects).   Oddly, Star Trek - Wrath of the Khan, with fairly mundane recording tonally, has the best imaging of any recording I've heard in our big room w/ Khorns.  It was originally recorded for 70mm 6 track (5 music).  My wife and I were so taken with it during the end credits, we ended up playing them again, sitting about 4 feet from our 130 inch wide screen.  It was a "reach out and touch 'em" moment. Then there is the Decca mic Tree.  If you are interested, Google them all.  Many of these will sound different from the others, with different imaging/soundstage.

 

You will probably want to boost the bass a bit with most Klipsch, as the guy in the video may have implied.  Hopefully, you have a bass control.   Later, if you construct a Home Theater, and have a real .1 channel, you can:

  1. Roll off your mains (8000s) at about 80 Hz by setting them on "small" and Xover at about 80Hz.  This will increase headroom and relieve your 8000s of creating the deepest bass, perhaps making them a bit "tighter," and will assign the heavy lifting to the sub.
  2. Use a bass control to push the bass at maybe 90 Hz to 180 Hz, an octave in which a lot of "attack" occurs.

 

9 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

I wish I could test the speakers in my room, but the store policy doesn’t allow it. 

 

Sometimes store policy varies, depending on who you ask.  A manager is best, unless it's an independent store, in which case an owner may be best.  An ordinary clerk may be scared s**tles, therefore unable to help.  My most recent dealer (after we moved in 2004) allowed people to borrow almost any component Saturday at closing to Tuesday at opening (he was closed Mondays).  A former one loaned me a McIntosh power amp for quite a little while, because my order for a new one was stalled.  Another took back a Teac 4 channel reel to reel tape recorder, because when recording very soft passages in classical music, or dialog, without Dolby, which I didn't want to use because of artifacts (back then), it hissed like a Puff Adder in heat.  I got full credit, and he sold me a Crown reel to reel, which was fine.  An engineer at each of two of these places built me a custom piece of equipment.  Two of the owners delivered items to my house, and helped me set up.  Those were the days. 

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14 hours ago, willland said:

Possible cancellation issues if the phase and LPF/HPF settings are not "correct".  That alone could contribute to the "thin" sound.

 

Also, if the subwoofer and speakers are not volume matched, the low and mid bass could be over powering the lower midrange of the RPs. 

 

Bill

I experimented with the subwoofer settings with different phase and crossover settings. I also did the sub crawl once more. This only managed to make the bottom end sound worse. When I put the sub back into its usual spot and plugged the LFE port, the bottom end came to life again. 

 

The sub can overpower the speakers like you said; the solution is to fiddle a bit with the volume of the sub vis-a-vis the bass gain on the Yamaha receiver. In short, at least insofar as I'm able to manoeuvre with the setup, it doesn't seem like I can solve the problem.

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A cube would be the worst-case scenario.  What you've got is 2/3 the way there.  3" difference over 13' is nominally nothing.  But I ain't braggin' 'bout my room; it's a sight in its own right.

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Perhaps what would definitively solve the issue here is a speaker with a mid-range driver? I can save up for the Heresy IV. The key problem is the prohibitive price ($2,400), where I am. I imagine I'd be blown away with the Klispch sound I know in a bigger box, bigger woofer and a mid-range tweeter. Much better than the RP 8000 (at $1,500)? I don't know. 

 

 

EDIT: the used market doesn't offer great options in the city I live in, too. Those who own Klipsch speakers almost never sell.

 

EDIT 2: a brand new Heresy III can be had on ebay for $1,500 (including shipping). Tempting. 

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4 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

Perhaps what would definitively solve the issue here is a speaker with a mid-range driver? I can save up for the Heresy IV. The key problem is the prohibitive price ($2,400), where I am. I imagine I'd be blown away with the Klispch sound I know in a bigger box, bigger woofer and a mid-range tweeter. Much better than the RP 8000 (at $1,500)? I don't know. 

 

 

EDIT: the used market doesn't offer great options in the city I live in, too. Those who own Klipsch speakers almost never sell.

 

EDIT 2: a brand new Heresy III can be had on ebay for $1,500 (including shipping). Tempting. 

The more crossover sections you add into the equation the more problems you will have to listen to and the need for more distance for the drivers to all integrate with each other. A two way will integrate in a shorter distance than a three way will. That is why I recommended the tiny Dual Concentric Tannoy XT Mini as it integrates like a single small full range driver. On top of all this the XT Mini is much less expensive than the other options you are looking at. A pair of XT6 would also work in tight quarters considering that the vent is mounted on the bottom of the cabinet yet it vents forward so you can place the speaker closer to the front wall than you could the  XT Mini but both really ought to be forward of the wall for best results and the XT Mini with its smaller tweeter (3/4" Vs 1"') yields a more precise sound stage. In my living room my XT Miny sound larger than any loudspeaker I have ever used only in overall output level have other speakers bested the XT Mini. With  good subs the XT Mini is closer to my ideal than any larger speakers Tannoy and Klipsch that I have owned, they remind me a lot of my 20 plus years with electrostatic loudspeakers (Quad 57 x 2 pair, Quad 63, Acoustat 1+1 2+2 1+1custum built panels) form a detail and dynamic point of view.

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4 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

Perhaps what would definitively solve the issue here is a speaker with a mid-range driver? I can save up for the Heresy IV. The key problem is the prohibitive price ($2,400), where I am. I imagine I'd be blown away with the Klispch sound I know in a bigger box, bigger woofer and a mid-range tweeter. Much better than the RP 8000 (at $1,500)? I don't know. 

 

 

EDIT: the used market doesn't offer great options in the city I live in, too. Those who own Klipsch speakers almost never sell.

 

EDIT 2: a brand new Heresy III can be had on ebay for $1,500 (including shipping). Tempting. 

 

With a Heresy III or IV will there be an unobstructed line from the tweeter & midrange to your ears?  

 

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I don't claim to know as much as some of these folks, but I've heard that some of these things are trade-offs.  Thus the importance of listening trials, if at all possible. 

 

7 hours ago, moray james said:

The more crossover sections you add into the equation the more problems you will have to listen to ...

 

I agree that it's nice to have only a minimum of electronics in the way (the goal being "a straight wire with gain"), but  if there is a trade-off, what differences are audible (to you)?  Tannoy has always been held in the highest esteem, so that mini is definitely worth a listen ...

 

As to a lack of integration, would the 8000s (2 way) or the Tannoy (2 way) sound more integrated than the 3 way Heresy  III or IV?  I don't know.  The impetus for designing coaxial speakers in the '50s, 60's '70's may have grown out of the need for integration.  Wally Heider studio in San Francisco used coaxial Altec 604 Es in bass reflex.  They sounded better that any other control room the class I was in during 1974 ("Discover Your Ears," 3 units) visited back then, including the custom designed, wood horned, Record Plant speakers in Sausalito (maybe their speakers sounded better with their famous drug collection, I don't know).  I noticed their L.A. plant went over to Klipsch a few years later.  I don't notice a lack of integration with the Heresy IIs (3 way) I use as surrounds.  I just listened to some Issac Stern and chamber orchestra at various distances with just one Heresy II to see if I could hear a lack of integration at close distances.  I couldn't.  All I noticed was the closer the better!  Not a stupendous effect, though.  They sounded fine at 12 feet, but I needed to turn the volume up a little.

 

Speaking of volume, the Tannoy has a sensitivity of only 88 dB.  I'm not sure if your current electronics can pump out enough power to drive that at volumes that sound orchestral, peaks and all.

 

I have heard tiny speakers (always with a separate sub) sound like they have great imaging/sound stage.  In my own late little studio, of the '70s, I had  some big horn loaded JBLs with a variety of small speakers between the JBLs.  In switching to one pair, away from the JBLs, the imaging improved.  But in switching back to the JBLs, I thought, "Now that's an orchestra!"  Since you like classical, I presume you would want to think you are listening to an orchestra!  Also, in listening to a live orchestra from, say, the 10th row, they don't always have great imaging(!)  If tried closing my eyes a few times, and, sure, the orchestra bells are sharply located, but the rest can be so-so.  But it does sound dynamic as all get out, complex, and BIG.

 

The dreaded modulation distortion might (or might not) sometimes be a byproduct of a two-way (as opposed to a three-way) design.  This guy thinks it is:

 

Doppler distortion  Stereophile

"The results were intriguing. Distortion of the flute was gross at 10mm peak diaphragm displacement and not in the least bit euphonic. On the contrary, Doppler made the sound as harsh as you might expect of a distortion mechanism that introduces intermodulation products. At 3.16mm peak displacement (below Fryer's suggested detectability threshold) the distortion level was obviously lower but still clearly audible; and even at 1mm it could still be heard affecting the flute's timbre and adding "edge."

Everyone who uses a two-way speaker (me included) can take heart from the fact that most music signals are less revealing of Doppler distortion than this special brew. But these findings undermine the view, widely accepted in the last two decades, that Doppler distortion in loudspeakers is not something we should trouble about. Having done the listening, I side with Moir and Klipsch more than with Fryer, Allison, and Villchur on this issue—something that may come as no surprise to anyone who has heard the effects of low-level jitter and sees where the Fryer criterion appears in fig.2.

It has often been claimed that, with a two-way speaker, there are audible benefits to using a crossover frequency below the typical 3kHz, the usual explanation being that this removes the crossover from the ear's area of greatest sensitivity. But I wonder. Perhaps this not-uncommon experience actually has much more to do with the D word. A three-way solution is potentially even better. Three-way speakers bring new design challenges, of course, in particular the need to achieve another perceptually seamless handover between drivers. But from the Doppler perspective, having a crossover for the bass driver at 400Hz or 500Hz is, unquestionably, better."


Read more at

 

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler-distortion-loudspeakers-page-3#omWdye7G676SYg0g.99

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler

 

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On 5/13/2020 at 11:11 PM, moray james said:

The more crossover sections you add into the equation the more problems you will have to listen to and the need for more distance for the drivers to all integrate with each other. A two way will integrate in a shorter distance than a three way will. That is why I recommended the tiny Dual Concentric Tannoy XT Mini as it integrates like a single small full range driver. On top of all this the XT Mini is much less expensive than the other options you are looking at. A pair of XT6 would also work in tight quarters considering that the vent is mounted on the bottom of the cabinet yet it vents forward so you can place the speaker closer to the front wall than you could the  XT Mini but both really ought to be forward of the wall for best results and the XT Mini with its smaller tweeter (3/4" Vs 1"') yields a more precise sound stage. In my living room my XT Miny sound larger than any loudspeaker I have ever used only in overall output level have other speakers bested the XT Mini. With  good subs the XT Mini is closer to my ideal than any larger speakers Tannoy and Klipsch that I have owned, they remind me a lot of my 20 plus years with electrostatic loudspeakers (Quad 57 x 2 pair, Quad 63, Acoustat 1+1 2+2 1+1custum built panels) form a detail and dynamic point of view.

How does Tannoy’s sound compare to Klipsch’s? I’m afraid this brand isn’t available to audition in my city. 

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On 5/13/2020 at 11:26 PM, garyrc said:

 

With a Heresy III or IV will there be an unobstructed line from the tweeter & midrange to your ears?  

 

Yup. Without stands, even. 

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5 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

How does Tannoy’s sound compare to Klipsch’s? I’m afraid this brand isn’t available to audition in my city. 

overall efficiency is lower these are small drivers but are the best DC that they (Tannoy) have ever made, the new horn loaded tweeters are very good. I am running the Benchmade AHB2 100 watts a side and volume is not a concern for me and the dynamics are excellent compared to my modified H3. They sound very much like the H3 but smoother (more relaxed yet higher resolution) and more open with better stage and image. They remind me most of my modified Acoustat 1+1 but with a much wider sweet spot. You can see if you can find a used pair of the XT Mini I don't think you would want to let them go they are small and will be inexpensive to post. I do plan to add some cabinet brace work (below the woofer and then to stiffen the lower half of the front, sides and top and bottom) also to totally replace the internal cabinet damping material and will do some trials with switching from reflex to sealed though I am very impressed with the bass, they did a very good job of tuning them with the vent. Note I have added 1/4" extra length to the vents otherwise they are bone stock right now aside from a bunch of tuning devices I have on top of the cabinets  which look funny but which add dramatically to the spatial soundscape like the difference between a direct radiator and a planar loudspeaker. These may well be my last loudspeaker. If I can make it from Calgary out to Vancouver Island to visit my friend Dave Dulogos I would like to have him EnABL treat the cones and tweeter horns. I have listened to this treatment and was very impressed with it. Though many will consider this voodoo, I suspect they have never done a controlled comparison, I have been fortunate enough to do so and to have met Bud once when visiting with Dave. I have included a link so that you will have an understanding of what this process involves. Good luck on our journey.

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100399-enabl-processes.html

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20 hours ago, moray james said:

overall efficiency is lower these are small drivers but are the best DC that they (Tannoy) have ever made, the new horn loaded tweeters are very good. I am running the Benchmade AHB2 100 watts a side and volume is not a concern for me and the dynamics are excellent compared to my modified H3. They sound very much like the H3 but smoother (more relaxed yet higher resolution) and more open with better stage and image. They remind me most of my modified Acoustat 1+1 but with a much wider sweet spot. You can see if you can find a used pair of the XT Mini I don't think you would want to let them go they are small and will be inexpensive to post. I do plan to add some cabinet brace work (below the woofer and then to stiffen the lower half of the front, sides and top and bottom) also to totally replace the internal cabinet damping material and will do some trials with switching from reflex to sealed though I am very impressed with the bass, they did a very good job of tuning them with the vent. Note I have added 1/4" extra length to the vents otherwise they are bone stock right now aside from a bunch of tuning devices I have on top of the cabinets  which look funny but which add dramatically to the spatial soundscape like the difference between a direct radiator and a planar loudspeaker. These may well be my last loudspeaker. If I can make it from Calgary out to Vancouver Island to visit my friend Dave Dulogos I would like to have him EnABL treat the cones and tweeter horns. I have listened to this treatment and was very impressed with it. Though many will consider this voodoo, I suspect they have never done a controlled comparison, I have been fortunate enough to do so and to have met Bud once when visiting with Dave. I have included a link so that you will have an understanding of what this process involves. Good luck on our journey.

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100399-enabl-processes.html

All I can tell is that price is great and might be worth a risk. But being unable to evaluate the sound signature is a bit of an issue. 
 

Is there agreement, broadly speaking, on the similarity between Klipsch and Tannoy in this regard? 

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On 5/18/2020 at 9:10 AM, Man in the Box said:

All I can tell is that price is great and might be worth a risk. But being unable to evaluate the sound signature is a bit of an issue. 
 

Is there agreement, broadly speaking, on the similarity between Klipsch and Tannoy in this regard? 

agreement in the audio world hmmmm? see if you can find any coaxial speaker or better a DC Tannoy to listen to though the Revolution Series XT is on another level compared to all the Tannoy I have owned. The XT Mini is more relaxed and at ease compared to a stock Klipsch but I do not mean they are soft of dull, they are closer to  a JBL more like the sound of my L200B than my H3 or KLF20. I would say that Tannoy are  more refined than a Klipsch. That said you are the only one who can make the decision if they are right for you or not. Ask around if they are any Tannoy owners in your local and visit for a listen that will get you into the ball park. Lets put it another way Tannoy is one of the most widely used studio monitors in the world with many of your favorite recordings made on them Klipsch does not even come close in that department. I think it would be  reasonable to suggest there is a very good chance you will like them very much. As always remember YMMV.

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