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Man in the Box

Would you put an RP 8000 in a 4x4m size bedroom? Or is it overkill?

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19 minutes ago, Man in the Box said:

The trouble is that I’ve already invested in a very good SVS 12 inch sealed sub. I feel that adding a pair of speakers should add more volume in the mids and mid lows, which I feel are most lacking. 

What is the LPF setting on your SVS?  

 

Bill

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27 minutes ago, artto said:

 

Are you saying you want to add an additional pair of speakers, floor standing ones? Do you intend to use them at the same time with the RP60? (I was assuming you would be replacing the RP60)

Yes, to add to what I already have. I can see them working well with the RP 5000 or 6000 (but the latter is out of stock and won’t be restocked for now). 
 

Alternatively, I could sell the 160s and buy the RP 8000. 

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16 minutes ago, willland said:

What is the LPF setting on your SVS?  

 

Bill

It’s done automatically by plugging the sub to the receiver through the “LFE” port. I don’t know what this is called, but I tried to set up crossover manually and found this arrangement to be much better. So I’m assuming the crossover is at 120 hz. Can’t remember why I’m assuming that though. 

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I think that is a very bad idea - to combine the RP60 with another pair of speakers, of any kind, doing exactly the same thing, especially in close proximity to each other, especially in a relatively small room.

 

There is so much wrong with that idea. I understand where you're coming from. When I was a youngster I tried the same thing, many times, with many different kinds of speakers, both additive as you are considering, or just putting them in the rear corners of a small room or as center speakers.

 

If you want to experiment, that's ok. That's how we learn. But don't expect a better result. It may sound impressive at first. But as you grow "audio wise" (pun intended) you'll realize how inappropriate it is.

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8 minutes ago, Man in the Box said:

It’s done automatically by plugging the sub to the receiver through the “LFE” port. I don’t know what this is called, but I tried to set up crossover manually and found this arrangement to be much better. So I’m assuming the crossover is at 120 hz. Can’t remember why I’m assuming that though. 

Maybe try using the line level input and adjust the low pass filter to your liking.  With the LFE input, your sub assumes the the signal has been preset by your receiver.   The LFE input is also designed to be used with an AVR or pre/pro with the LFE(.1) channel.  Your Yamaha stereo receiver does not produce that .1 channel.

 

Bill 

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And then there's the amplifier. How are you going to connect these speakers together? Isn't your receiver "stereo"?

 

If you connect them in series the speaker's combined impedance is cumulative (8+8=16) reducing the power output delivered to the speakers in half.

If you connect them in parallel then the combined impedance is half (8/2=4) which would cause the amplifier to put out twice the power. That may be enough to cause the amplifier to give up the ghost as it tries to produce more current than it is capable of at certain frequencies. Some of the better amps can tolerate that. Most run of the mill consumer gear not so much.

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4 minutes ago, willland said:

Maybe try using the line level input and adjust the low pass filter to your liking.  With the LFE input, your sub assumes the the signal has been preset by your receiver.   The LFE input is also designed to be used with an AVR or pre/pro with the LFE(.1) channel.  Your Yamaha stereo receiver does not produce that .1 channel.

 

Bill 

Your Yamaha stereo receiver does not produce that .1 channel.

 

Another good point!!!!!

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16 minutes ago, willland said:

Maybe try using the line level input and adjust the low pass filter to your liking.

Take a look at this.

 

Very good advice here.

 

Bill

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On 5/10/2020 at 2:08 PM, Man in the Box said:

Also, will my receiver (the Yamaha R-N602) be able to drive both the RP 8000 and the 160s? This is the spec sheet.

 

Probably not.  It sure looks like it has only a 2 channel (full range) output.  You should not hook up more full range speakers to it (e.g., in parallel).  That's my opinion; others will chime in.

 

A powered subwoofer is O.K., if the subwoofer output is a conventional one. 

 

Also, it appears to be a 2 channel amp, with 80 watts per channel, despite them pulling almost every trick in the book to make you think it has more power!   Only the last line, IMO, of the power specs conforms to standard of good conscience specs: "Minimum RMS Output Power 80W + 80W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.04% THD).  It's no surprise they can get an illegitimate 115 w.p.c. at 10% distortion at 1K!!  Give me a break! 

 

Fortunately, if you get an 8000, it is sensitive enough to give you about 106 dB at the listening position (not at 1m) in your ~~ 12' x 12' room with the allotted 80 watts per channel, for peaks.  That's just over the THX/Dolby/cinema standard for peaks (the subwoofer you choose needs to be capable of 115 dB to hit cinema standard peaks).  Most people are happy at 5 to 10 dB below standard ("reference" for peaks), and early reflections may make minus 5 to 10 dB sound louder than they otherwise would.  If this bedroom has a bed, that, along with the treatments you mentioned, that might pull the SPL above ~~~ 600 Hz down even more.

 

I'd go for the 8000, for several reasons:

  • It is a bit more sensitive, so it can give you the levels mentioned above.
  • It is about 7" taller, so if you sit or stretch out on the bed, there should be an unobstructed line from the tweeter to your ears, which, IMO, is a must.  Beds absorb high frequencies more than mids and lows.  My OCD says, keep your feet and knees out of  the way, as well as any cats or dogs.

Your biggest problem may be that your room is perfectly square.  It's always possible that you may have some unfortunate peaks or dips in a room of any size (home size).  Google room acoustics.  With a perfectly square room, the same peaks or dips will be encouraged by 2 dimensions.  If necessary (it may not bother you at all) you may want to put a bass trap (I would think a tuned one -- perhaps a small dimension Helmholtz resonator (?) --- people who know  more than me will comment) in a corner.   Pass it off as a sculpture.  

 

As for whether a given speaker will be "overkill" in a small room ... I doubt it.  At one time, I had Klipschorns in a 9' x 11.35' room.  They sounded great, but only from one seat.  Not overkill.  They now reside in a > 4,000 cu.ft. room, and sound equally good, but from any of 6 seats.  I had horn loaded JBLs in a 12 x 11 foot room, and they were good.  Not overkill.

 

I'll bet the 8000 will please you.

 

Here's a question.  When was the house or apartment this bedroom is in built?  It was known that perfectly square rooms were not good for music back as far as 1958, when I grew addicted to this hobby.  I'm guessing it was known to people like PWK back in the '40s.  Just wondering.  Good Luck!

 

 

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5 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

What you’re saying seems sensible. But would you advise me to buy the RP 5000, then? I know, viscerally, that the 160s just aren’t enough. The sound seems “thin,” if that makes sense. 

I cannot comment on the small Klipsch but I can tell you that I am now running a pair of Tannoy Revolution XT series XT Mini which are true Dual Concentric (two way) drivers with a 3.25 inch woofer up on 30" high stands with the back of the small cabinets being 18" away from the front wall, the speakers are ten feet apart and the central listening position (my head) is ten feet away from each speaker. These have replaced a pair of very heavily modified H3 and I can play most music without ever feeling I need to hook up any of a number of subs I have in the room. Everyone who hears these for the first time thinks that the subs are connects and running which they are not. I can increase the bass levels by moving the speakers back toward the front wall but they begin to sound bloated though there is more bass. Location is very important. I am running these with a very solid 100 watts per channel amplifier made by Benchmark. These did require about six weeks worth of burn in to get to where they are now. I plan a number of modifications to these speakers later in the summer. So far apart from adding 1/4 inch to the length of the reflex vents they are stock. I have owned a lot of Tannoy over the decades and these are by far the finest that Tannoy have ever designed and produced imo.

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On 5/11/2020 at 12:23 AM, dtel said:

If it fits in the room it's not overkill, IMO

I have never had the midbass get out of control.

DTEL said it best -------

  • Haha 1

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13 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

Probably not.  It sure looks like it has only a 2 channel (full range) output.  You should not hook up more full range speakers to it (e.g., in parallel).  That's my opinion; others will chime in.

 

A powered subwoofer is O.K., if the subwoofer output is a conventional one. 

 

Also, it appears to be a 2 channel amp, with 80 watts per channel, despite them pulling almost every trick in the book to make you think it has more power!   Only the last line, IMO, of the power specs conforms to standard of good conscience specs: "Minimum RMS Output Power 80W + 80W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.04% THD).  It's no surprise they can get an illegitimate 115 w.p.c. at 10% distortion at 1K!!  Give me a break! 

 

Fortunately, if you get an 8000, it is sensitive enough to give you about 106 dB at the listening position (not at 1m) in your ~~ 12' x 12' room with the allotted 80 watts per channel, for peaks.  That's just over the THX/Dolby/cinema standard for peaks (the subwoofer you choose needs to be capable of 115 dB to hit cinema standard peaks).  Most people are happy at 5 to 10 dB below standard ("reference" for peaks), and early reflections may make minus 5 to 10 dB sound louder than they otherwise would.  If this bedroom has a bed, that, along with the treatments you mentioned, that might pull the SPL above ~~~ 600 Hz down even more.

 

I'd go for the 8000, for several reasons:

  • It is a bit more sensitive, so it can give you the levels mentioned above.
  • It is about 7" taller, so if you sit or stretch out on the bed, there should be an unobstructed line from the tweeter to your ears, which, IMO, is a must.  Beds absorb high frequencies more than mids and lows.  My OCD says, keep your feet and knees out of  the way, as well as any cats or dogs.

Your biggest problem may be that your room is perfectly square.  It's always possible that you may have some unfortunate peaks or dips in a room of any size (home size).  Google room acoustics.  With a perfectly square room, the same peaks or dips will be encouraged by 2 dimensions.  If necessary (it may not bother you at all) you may want to put a bass trap (I would think a tuned one -- perhaps a small dimension Helmholtz resonator (?) --- people who know  more than me will comment) in a corner.   Pass it off as a sculpture.  

 

As for whether a given speaker will be "overkill" in a small room ... I doubt it.  At one time, I had Klipschorns in a 9' x 11.35' room.  They sounded great, but only from one seat.  Not overkill.  They now reside in a > 4,000 cu.ft. room, and sound equally good, but from any of 6 seats.  I had horn loaded JBLs in a 12 x 11 foot room, and they were good.  Not overkill.

 

I'll bet the 8000 will please you.

 

Here's a question.  When was the house or apartment this bedroom is in built?  It was known that perfectly square rooms were not good for music back as far as 1958, when I grew addicted to this hobby.  I'm guessing it was known to people like PWK back in the '40s.  Just wondering.  Good Luck!

 

 

Gary, we’ve interacted before and you’ve always written such thoughtful responses.
 

I measured my room just now and found that it’s not quite perfectly square. There’s about half a feet of difference. Probably doesn’t make a difference, I imagine. 
 

The house isn’t old. Was built in 2005 or thereabouts. Music would definitely be a factor to consider if I ever another place. 
 

Here's a question for you: there’s one key advantage to the RP160s: if you listen with your eyes closed, you can’t pinpoint their location. This suggests that they’re interacting with the room relatively well, I imagine. Would the 8000 be overbearing, in this sense? How was your experience with the Klipschorn (so jealous!)?

 

I wish I could test the speakers in my room, but the store policy doesn’t allow it. 

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17 hours ago, artto said:

I think that is a very bad idea - to combine the RP60 with another pair of speakers, of any kind, doing exactly the same thing, especially in close proximity to each other, especially in a relatively small room.

 

There is so much wrong with that idea. I understand where you're coming from. When I was a youngster I tried the same thing, many times, with many different kinds of speakers, both additive as you are considering, or just putting them in the rear corners of a small room or as center speakers.

 

If you want to experiment, that's ok. That's how we learn. But don't expect a better result. It may sound impressive at first. But as you grow "audio wise" (pun intended) you'll realize how inappropriate it is.

I can see what you’re saying. The idea, originally, was to build a home theater piece by piece. But I really don’t have enough room for two pairs of speakers. 
 

I’m considering getting the 8000 and selling the 160s now. Let me know if you have any thoughts on that kind of setup (towers + 12 inch sealed sub). 
 

17 hours ago, willland said:

Maybe try using the line level input and adjust the low pass filter to your liking.  With the LFE input, your sub assumes the the signal has been preset by your receiver.   The LFE input is also designed to be used with an AVR or pre/pro with the LFE(.1) channel.  Your Yamaha stereo receiver does not produce that .1 channel.

 

Bill 

That’s true. I really have no idea if it would work. Some people told me it would and others say it wouldn’t. 
 

The whole point is to have a more immersive experience. At the moment, the sound stage sounds small, despite my room not being so big. 

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Posted (edited)

I found a direct comparison between the RP 600 (the 160s’ successor) and the RP 8000. The comparison begins at 4:00. The reviewer’s conclusion suggests that the 8000 will provide what’s lacking with the bookshelves. 
 

 

Edited by Man in the Box

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14 hours ago, 000 said:

DTEL said it best -------

Sometimes I just get lucky ?

 

19 hours ago, garyrc said:

As for whether a given speaker will be "overkill" in a small room ... I doubt it.  At one time, I had Klipschorns in a 9' x 11.35' room.  They sounded great, but only from one seat.  Not overkill.  They now reside in a > 4,000 cu.ft. room, and sound equally good, but from any of 6 seats.  I had horn loaded JBLs in a 12 x 11 foot room, and they were good.  Not overkill.

I agree a larger room is better but I still think the smaller room would not be overkill.

 

Were using Cornwall lll's in a 15' wide x 10' deep bedroom, not overkill, but being a bedroom it does have a bed and a couple other things.

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2 hours ago, Man in the Box said:

I can see what you’re saying. The idea, originally, was to build a home theater piece by piece. But I really don’t have enough room for two pairs of speakers. 
 

I’m considering getting the 8000 and selling the 160s now. Let me know if you have any thoughts on that kind of setup (towers + 12 inch sealed sub). 
 

That’s true. I really have no idea if it would work. Some people told me it would and others say it wouldn’t. 
 

The whole point is to have a more immersive experience. At the moment, the sound stage sounds small, despite my room not being so big. 

 

"I’m considering getting the 8000 and selling the 160s now. Let me know if you have any thoughts on that kind of setup (towers + 12 inch sealed sub)." 

That should be fine.

 

"The whole point is to have a more immersive experience. At the moment, the sound stage sounds small, despite my room not being so big." 

Bigger speakers are probably not going to make for a much bigger sound stage - in the same small room.

 

Here's a little story. Many, many moons ago (my early 20's) I went to see/hear the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I had never heard a full symphony orchestra & chorus at that point. I didn't have any "classical" records at that point either. I was totally blown away at the shear scale, and volume of the music. I had no idea it could be so loud. And I was used to playing in some good rock bands for years. I went out and bought Gustav Holst's The Planets, Zubin Mehta/Los Angeles Philharmonic (London). I had a pretty good stereo - in my bedroom - about the same size as yours. JBL L-100, Thorens TD160, B&O phono pickup, Crown IC150 preamp/Crown D60 power amp. When I put that recording on I was so disappointed. I turned it up. I moved the speakers as far apart as I could. Nothing. Absolutely NOTHING like the real experience. I figured I needed a bigger sound stage. To my mother's dismay I moved everything out to the living room, probably something like 16'x20'. Wow, did I run out of gas fast!!!!! That 42 watt/ch Crown didn't cut it. The JBL studio monitors didn't cut it. And there still wasn't a big enough sound stage.

 

The point is, you're not going to achieve that in a small room regardless of what you do. Maybe some kind of surround sound may make it more immersive for you. You are on a journey. And you have entered the Twilight Zone. Have FUN.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, artto said:

 

"I’m considering getting the 8000 and selling the 160s now. Let me know if you have any thoughts on that kind of setup (towers + 12 inch sealed sub)." 

That should be fine.

 

"The whole point is to have a more immersive experience. At the moment, the sound stage sounds small, despite my room not being so big." 

Bigger speakers are probably not going to make for a much bigger sound stage - in the same small room.

 

Here's a little story. Many, many moons ago (my early 20's) I went to see/hear the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I had never heard a full symphony orchestra & chorus at that point. I didn't have any "classical" records at that point either. I was totally blown away at the shear scale, and volume of the music. I had no idea it could be so loud. And I was used to playing in some good rock bands for years. I went out and bought Gustav Holst's The Planets, Zubin Mehta/Los Angeles Philharmonic (London). I had a pretty good stereo - in my bedroom - about the same size as yours. JBL L-100, Thorens TD160, B&O phono pickup, Crown IC150 preamp/Crown D60 power amp. When I put that recording on I was so disappointed. I turned it up. I moved the speakers as far apart as I could. Nothing. Absolutely NOTHING like the real experience. I figured I needed a bigger sound stage. To my mother's dismay I moved everything out to the living room, probably something like 16'x20'. Wow, did I run out of gas fast!!!!! That 42 watt/ch Crown didn't cut it. The JBL studio monitors didn't cut it. And there still wasn't a big enough sound stage.

 

The point is, you're not going to achieve that in a small room regardless of what you do. Maybe some kind of surround sound may make it more immersive for you. You are on a journey. And you have entered the Twilight Zone. Have FUN.

I enjoyed that anecdote. I find myself to be in a similar position. I’m partly motivated by wanting to become a better musician. A dynamic set of speakers can shed light on the dynamics of a piano piece, for instance. Not in relation to the real thing; that will remain an unattainable ideal. Getting into audio brought me a small bit closer, however. 
 

You say that the 8000 won’t provide a wider sound stage. But surely there’ll be a difference?

 

I consider getting the Klipsch bipoles for a fleeting moment and attach them on both sides of the room. They’re meant for home theaters, but I thought they might help. But I imagine they’ll lack the punch of the larger cabinets in the 8000s. 

Edited by Man in the Box

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I suspect (based on my experience) that the RP8000 will sound bigger - as in "fuller", more robust. But I wouldn't necessarily call it a bigger sound stage.

 

Another story: When I built my dedicated listening room some 35 years ago, I was using Klipschorns with a Belle Klipsch (similar to LaScala) center speaker. The speakers were on the short wall (<20'). Late one night on a whim, I decided to move one of the Khorns to the opposite corner of the room - on the long wall. The Khorns were then >28' apart. WHOA. I was amazed at the sound stage. Everything "opened up". Even though I felt the room wasn't really deep enough (not enough space behind me) it was amazing how large and expanded the sound stage became. It was more like "I was IN the place/space where the music was made". BTW, just for the record, I bought the (unfinished) Khorns as a college graduation present for myself. And they were initially in the apartment bedroom (12'x14') before moving back to Chicago. It never did them any justice. Yes, they sounded better than anything Bose (IMO). But never anything like when I used them in a minimally appropriate sized room with reasonably good proportions for good acoustics, especially farther apart.

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57 minutes ago, artto said:

I suspect (based on my experience) that the RP8000 will sound bigger - as in "fuller", more robust. But I wouldn't necessarily call it a bigger sound stage.

 

Another story: When I built my dedicated listening room some 35 years ago, I was using Klipschorns with a Belle Klipsch (similar to LaScala) center speaker. The speakers were on the short wall (<20'). Late one night on a whim, I decided to move one of the Khorns to the opposite corner of the room - on the long wall. The Khorns were then >28' apart. WHOA. I was amazed at the sound stage. Everything "opened up". Even though I felt the room wasn't really deep enough (not enough space behind me) it was amazing how large and expanded the sound stage became. It was more like "I was IN the place/space where the music was made". BTW, just for the record, I bought the (unfinished) Khorns as a college graduation present for myself. And they were initially in the apartment bedroom (12'x14') before moving back to Chicago. It never did them any justice. Yes, they sounded better than anything Bose (IMO). But never anything like when I used them in a minimally appropriate sized room with reasonably good proportions for good acoustics, especially farther apart.

Owning Klipschorns at that stage of your life is pretty enviable. But I’m not sure what them being “unfinished” means. Not fully manufactured?
 

I’m listening to my speakers right now and am experimenting with the distance between them (I know what the ideal distance is by now) to test whether I am, in fact, dissatisfied with the sound stage, especially given that you’ve made the helpful distinction between that and robustness/ fullness. If “sound stage” means the perceived width and height of the sound, I’d say the 160s are doing more than a decent job. The sound feels spacious. It’s that the quality of the sound seems “thin.” 
 

The question is: are there any downsides to using big speakers in a small room (aside from the obvious financial one, of course)? 

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36 minutes ago, Man in the Box said:

The sound feels spacious. It’s that the quality of the sound seems “thin.” 

I am not trying to beat a dead horse but have you experimented more with your SB-2000/RP-160Ms cohesiveness?  Different subwoofer placement, phase, volume matching, input, LPF/HPF?  Sometimes it just take time and patience to get it "right".  When you do, you will know it.

 

Bill

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