tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 I am trying to get a crash course in tube amps before I take the plunge. Can anyone reccomend a good book to read (The more technical the better). Now for the subjective question taht will probably start a lot of arguments. Which amp shpould I get. A scott, eico, dynaco. I really like the way the separates look (bad reason but at leat I am honest). I am running K-horns in a 14' x 29' x 2 story room. what do you recommend? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 Tiger... BOY!!! Are you opening a can of worms here or what???? LOL! I can already tell you what you are gonna read...as answers to your question. LOL! Kelly is gonna say "EICO HF-81....yadda, yadda, yadda..." LOL! Some of the others will say "Scott 299...yadda, yadda, yadda..." LOL! Still a few others will say "Dynaco ST-70, or...yadda, yadda, yadda..." LOL! And all of them will go on and on about this being better than that, etc...yadda yadda yadda... So...if COST is NOT a major issue in this purchase, and you want that "vintage tube sound" in a high quality tube amp that just sings its heart out for you, has fantastic dynamic range, and will show you performance from your K-horns you never believed they could give you and have never heard before...my suggestion is: Harman/Kardon Citation II(that's ROMAN numerals for two, NOT arabic for eleven!!)...its 60 WPC, power transformers that are untouchable to provide that power, extreme low-end and high-end punch, clean sound, "musicality", etc...will blow you away!yadda yadda yadda! LOL! And if you can afford one, and want to do a few upgrades to it, its cost will end up being between 600-1200 bucks by the time you are finished! Still alot cheaper than many modern "high-end" stereo amplifiers....so What you do is your choice...and I am sure you are gonna end up with loads of rhetoric from various members about various "great" tube amps...so wade through it all...give a few of them a listen if you can...and roll the dice!! You already have MY suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 tk, Each of those have their following as HDBR says. What would actually be best is if you were able to audition properly tuned models in your own listening environment. You could then make a choice based on your own listening pleasure. I've not heard a properly tuned Scott unit. I do have an Eico HF-81 and Dynaco ST-70 MKII. Of the two, I prefer the Eico HF-81 over the Dynaco ST-70 for a 2 channel music system. Please bear in mind that my Dynaco model has solid state rectification, not the favored tube rectification. Dynaco models with SS rectification deliver better bass punch, however, they don't deliver the more liquid like tube warmth of the tube rectified units. Good luck in your tube quest. Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 Your Options are endless !! I'm not jumping into this rats nest !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 let me narrow the field. I am really interested in separates, not an integrated unit. I am afraid that if I buy an integrated, I will get the upgrade bug (an expensive one to get rid of!!) So I think that I should go for separates right away. so here are my questions: ANY SUGGESTIONS ON SEPARATES ANY SUGGESTIONS ON BOOKS TO BUY TO LEARN HOW TO FIX AND WORK ON TUBE AMPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 let me narrow the field. I am really interested in separates, not an integrated unit. I am afraid that if I buy an integrated, I will get the upgrade bug (an expensive one to get rid of!!) So I think that I should go for separates right away. so here are my questions: ANY SUGGESTIONS ON SEPARATES ANY SUGGESTIONS ON BOOKS TO BUY TO LEARN HOW TO FIX AND WORK ON TUBE AMPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 let me narrow the field. I am really interested in separates, not an integrated unit. I am afraid that if I buy an integrated, I will get the upgrade bug (an expensive one to get rid of!!) So I think that I should go for separates right away. so here are my questions: ANY SUGGESTIONS ON SEPARATES ANY SUGGESTIONS ON BOOKS TO BUY TO LEARN HOW TO FIX AND WORK ON TUBE AMPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 let me narrow the field. I am really interested in separates, not an integrated unit. I am afraid that if I buy an integrated, I will get the upgrade bug (an expensive one to get rid of!!) So I think that I should go for separates right away. so here are my questions: ANY SUGGESTIONS ON SEPARATES ANY SUGGESTIONS ON BOOKS TO BUY TO LEARN HOW TO FIX AND WORK ON TUBE AMPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 let me narrow the field. I am really interested in separates, not an integrated unit. I am afraid that if I buy an integrated, I will get the upgrade bug (an expensive one to get rid of!!) So I think that I should go for separates right away. so here are my questions: ANY SUGGESTIONS ON SEPARATES ANY SUGGESTIONS ON BOOKS TO BUY TO LEARN HOW TO FIX AND WORK ON TUBE AMPS. Thanks, chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 The Citation II is a separate...it is a stereo tube power amplifier. You will still have to pick out a pre-amplifier, a tuner, and a phono preamp for the preamplifier(if you intend to use modern cartridges with an older style of tube pre-amp). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 Separates are nice, but maybe somewhat overrated. The Scott Craig sent me actually sounds better in ways than the AE-3 DJH preamp and AE-25 DJH amp I was running. Don't get caught up in this -- you'll just end up spending money you don't need to spend. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 12, 2002 Author Share Posted December 12, 2002 Deang, how much power does your scott have? is it enough? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 12, 2002 Share Posted December 12, 2002 I dunno about separates being "over-rated." The best sounding systems I've ever owned were powered by vintage "separates." The one that got away: 1 pair of Marantz 9 mono blocks (the only EL34 amp that really nailed me right in the gut) 1 McIntsoh C11 preamp (later replaced by Marantz 7) These were hooked up to a pair of Quad ESL57 speakers and a SOTA, then Linn table. I got my Cornwalls later--I'll bet they would have been incredible in this system. I sold most of this stuff in the early 80's to put a new transmission in my truck. I went with a pair of MC-60 McIntosh amps with the C-11 because I could sell the 9's and the 7 for more money. DUMB! Today this combonation of a pair of 9's and a 7 would be worth at least 9 or 10 thousand dollars. DUMB DUMB DUMB. The one I have today: 1 pair of McIntosh MC-30 monoblocks 1 McIntosh C-22 preamp This combonation can be had for a pretty reasonable price--about three thousand or so. You all know how strongly I feel about the MC-30 and the C-22. I never really did much with HK stuff to be honest--I really don't like KT-88/6550 amps --the best I've heard is the MC-60 MAC and I don't really like it all that much. I have owned several 299 Scotts and they have the best phono section of any vintage integrated I've heard, but to compare them to a Marantz 7 or C-11/C-22 Mac is just plain silly. Sort of like comparing a Austin Healy bug-eye with an Aston Martic DB3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 I can see the theory of seperates having a cleaner signal from not having channel cross talk as being valid in a kind of Anal way. I'm sure that there is some cross talk in a intergrated amp but if the original engineer and builder did his job properly this is almost a non issue. I have tested this theory with my scope which is very sensitive by removing one channels input and turning the amp up with a signal going in one channel. The amount of crosstalk bleeding thru in a Scott intergrated is so small its almost unmeasurable ! This is not true of all vintage integrates available. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 Tigerwood, Whether or not something is "enough" will have alot to do with listening habits, musical tastes, room size, and how far away you sit from the speakers. I do all of my listening "near field". I've been doing this for about 3 years now. I sit about 8 feet back, and with the Scott wired to the 4 ohm speaker terminals on the back of the amp -- the Scott was only putting out about 10 watts. With the RF-7's, I had no problem at all reaching 100db at the listening position -- which I believe to be damn loud. I can't possibly imagine the Scott "not being enough" with a set of K-horns. Wired to the 8 ohm taps -- it should easily drive the K-horns to deafening levels -- unless of course, you live in a barn. Alan Maybe "over-rated" isn't the best word. It's just when I compare the level of musicality out of a $500 Scott integrated, to what comes out of my $1800 SET monoblocks and $850 preamp -- I just don't feel the "seperates" sound $2150 better than the integrated. Actually, the SET amps were originally $2750 in kit form, and the preamp currently goes for $1200. I think Welborne charged $450 to put the amps together, and the KR300BXLS replacement tubes I just bought were $450. So, we are really comparing an integrated that can be had and fixed for around $600 -- to a seperates system that if bought new -- would total $4850. There is a huge difference between $600 and $4850! I can't imagine many but a loon like myself taking the one over the other. It's the law of diminishing returns, and like I said before -- if the SET amps had to go -- I could easily live with the Scott forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pland Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 Hi, What are your price constraints? A real sleeper combo would be an Eico HF87 coupled with an Eico HF85 preamp.You should be able to buy the pair for less than 600.00.You'd have phono capability,about 30RMS per channel for more speaker flexibility,and a higher level of performance than the better known Dynaco ST70,Scott,and Eico integrateds,which are now comparable price wise.I've owned this combo,and to get real improvement you'd have to shell out a lot more dinero. On the other hand,the sound of various tube amps is so varied that most of us start developing preferences based on subjective taste.That's why we have these great heated exchanges based on nothing but preference.But all in all,this choice would be a terrific place to start,or stay if you so choose. Best, Pat Landrum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 There is still a major difference between low watt SET amplication and vintage audio. They both have their advantages and I would choose both since the vintage option is so inexpensive. It's nice you dont have to chose. But vintage does NOT SOUND like SET amplification; nothing does. I am not talking high watt SET, but the lower I think for flexibility sake and for the ulitmate in resolution and that see-thru reproduction, you really cant beat good, carefully chosen separates. For bang for buck and straight musicality, it's hard to beat some of the vintage integrateds when up to spec. I personally probably wouldnt hold for long with a vintage integrated as the curiosity and goal of going farther down the audio chain would call for other options. Ultimately, I really do prefer listening to SET amps about 60% of the time. But I LOVE the vintage sound and cranking up older EL-34 or EL-84 vintage options is VERY satisfying. And if I had to live with one, I could go on with my EICO HF-81 till my jowls come to roost. I also have a fondness for the look of a hand crafted amp with wood, metal, and open tubes on the chassis for all to see. This is yet another reason why I am going with the Super HF-81 down the road. But Dean's comments have some truth. Although, one has to be very careful reading these comments as they change like the wind, just as in ones preference for various amplifiers. If I had a pair of Klipschorns, I would definitely be curious to see what the SET solution was all about since it is so wholely different from other amplifier solutions. And I would also purchase a good vintage amp of choice. Just the other day, I was playing Hendrix on my CW with my finally up and running Progressive-Engineering The Turntable. Even though I had to resort to a subpar Grado, the sound was VERY dynamic with rock and my 2A3 monos. IT was really eye opening once again as to what one can get with so few watts with good implementation of the above. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 I've had three amps in the last nine months with my restored 1976 Klipschorns: AES SuperAmp Eico HF-81 Wright Sound 3.5W SET Interestingly, the Eico sounds probably the most musical in general terms, but the Wright SET sounds musical and is very detailed in its presentation. As Kelly suggested, I will listen to these SETs for a few months, and then put the Eico back in to provide for an educated baseline comparison. The SuperAmp just didn't work for me at all. If you're worried about a power shortage with a 3W SET, I wouldn't worry about it at all. I run the Klipschorns at normal listening levels (pretty loud, circa 90db, but not house-shaking) and I'm sure I'm not even using one of the three watts. I'm sure there are occasional spikes to push out some difficult passages, but the SET, to my ears anyway, is where you want to START with Klipschorns. PWK used a 2A3 SET to voice these speakers, so why not? All SET is not created equal as well. Good SET would be Welborne (#1) or Wright (#2), and after that the waters get a little muddier. I paid about $975 for my pair and I had a pre-amp already (needs to be tubed as well). It's expensive for sure, but a lot cheaper than the random walk associated with trial and error, buy and sell cost differentials. Start with the best you can afford and do it right the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 Mobile, I have a honest question for you that is not meant to be a slam on Low Watt set amps at all. When listening to some hard hitting rock and roll you choose the artist. Don't you wish that you could turn up just a little more ?? I realise the sound must be incredible but I just couldn't imagine not being able turn it up to a point where I can feel it in my chest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted December 13, 2002 Share Posted December 13, 2002 Craig, I have actually "turned it up a little more" with the Klipschorns just to see what kind of volume and sound quality I could get with the flea-sized amps. It was scary. Tell you what, next time Jeff Caban drops by with his Mega Death CD, I'll ask him to open it all the way up ... I only want a five second head start to leave the house But I think you and Jeff both like the sound in the chest-pounding range, and his personal review can be posted on this board. I remember being in the first row for a "Mountain" concert in my college gym. The sustained level of sound was close to Tomcat carrier landings It was kind of like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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