(New Gripe) How does your klipsch HT sound??????

[Jalen01]

Gripe Log.........#0003

So, I was at my dealers comparing IC's & Speaker Wire. After which I then decided (as usual) to play around with some of their gear and walked into their "Entry" level Music\HT room. In this room a salesman was showing Paradigm "Micro" HT System, Yamaha (? $500.00) A\V Reciever, Denon DVD 1000, and a Small Sony Wega\Vega TV to a costumer. After listening to this set-up for exactly one (1) minute, I thought to myself, "Man This little set-up actually Smokes my set-up in a couple key areas" and how could this be? These areas include:

1) Dialog and on-screen efx seem to be stuck to the TV, yet the center still covered a much wider area when one moves from one side of the room to the other (How it's supposed to sound IMO, very Cinema like).

2) Panning from Left to Center to Right was just about flawless as this little set-up could muster (Get's better the futher you go up the Paradigm lines, But, still better than what I'm getting no doubt)

3) Panning from front to Back & Vice Versa (Really doesn't apply for me cause I have different rears right now) was also a wonderful experience.

This system on the whole had me just seconds away from selling all My Chit. This was until after comparing some of the Higher end Paradigm Monitor & Studio set-ups w\higher end electronics, and coming to my senses. Final notes in comparing set-ups:

All of the Paradigm Systems (Performance - Studio Lines) flat out smokes my set-up in those key areas of HT. The Exceptions being in Overall Volume, Dynamics & Bass. Solutions: Get better DVD Player.....Matching Rears..........New A\V Processor\Reciever.....New IC's.

On the Musical side of things I listened at the more expensive Paradigm Studio 60's+ Mcintosh MC162 Amp + Proton Preamp+ Sony ES Sacd Player (and although I own a pair of Mini Monitors) , I still prefer My RF-3II's.

Here I believe both Klipsch RF-3II's & Paradigm 60's have their adv. and disadvantages. But, IMHO the RF-3II's more than hold their own against the highly regarded 60's.

Here are my HT components:

Pioneer D906S - getting alittle older - no dts or dplII - I think it's still good though maybe?

Rotel RB 976 - I'm realizing that this is a decent little amp i have here. Very versatile amoung other things. I'm running My front 3 for HT & My Mini's as Bch off of this amp.

Aiwa DV370 - May very well be the culprit. The Video part is pretty good actually. Ok you can stop laughing now.

36" JVC TV

Klipsch RF-3II's

Klipsch RC-3II

JBL N-26

Kenwood SW300 - does it's job well in my 15'X15' Livingroom

Sony PS2

monster 400MKII IC

AR- IC

Radio Shack Gold IC's

12gu ofc speaker wire

First generation no-name toslink cable

Things I'd like to upgrade:

1) IC's - just ordered a pair of Monster M950I for my cd player to amp & a Monster 1000d? silver coax cable for dvd player to Reciever. Only upgrade I can afford right now.

2) matching rears - Rs-3II's

3) new dvd player - highest as I can get

4)? Widescreen Digital Tv or AV Processor and on and on etc etc.......

Sorry for the long post guys. I just had to vent as usual & report my recent findings. Now I think that the Klipsch Ref3 series may be up to the above task with a few upgrades. But, what do you guys think? How does Your rig perform in those 3 key areas listed above (if at all possible, please list your gear: DVD player, A/V gear, and Cables Etc....)???

Thanks,

Jalen

[ricktate]

well i have my LaScalas about 12 feet apart toed in,next to them i have cornwalls facing straight,,,i sit about 10 feet from my 32 inch sony tv..12 year old sony at that,,,lol,,well the sony is young compared to my LaScala..lol.any way i dont seem to hear any thing wrong with my system,,,neighbors seem to think its a little loud sometimes.let me tell you the pearl harbor movie is just like being there,,,hehehehe...center channel i dont need no stinkin center channel....but sometimes the guys with badges do show up and say i can get in the center of the police car..lol...hey did anyone see that movie..ice age....fuuunnnyyy,,,sound was good to.....rick

[Audible Nectar]

There are several things that I would look at, the first being the processor.

The preamp/processor (or home theater receiver) is the most overlooked part of the system. I previously owned a Dolby Digital H/K receiver built in 1997, which I was using as a pre-pro. I upgraded to a Krell HTS (the original, which is still a bit dated, but high end and very clean sounding). The difference was STUNNING - a wholesale improvement in my system. I found out very quickly that digital processing has come a long way in a few short years - the newer units are much improved in steering and overall fidelity. You will find this to be true of even the more "entry level" processors out there today, they truly have come a long way.

I would put this at the top of the list. Remember the amps and speakers only put forth what the preamp puts into them. I would suggest looking at some more up-to-date receivers/processors. You may consider picking one up from a local shop to see if my theory is correct - most stores offer a return policy if the purchase turns out to not be worthwhile.

Also, I would take a look at the relationship between the speakers, the TV, and the room. Speaker positioning does help quite a bit - I find that the height of all three mains should match, so the speakers across the front form a straight line. If the center is too far above or below the mains, the panning and positioning of the sound seems unnatural. A little experimenting with speaker positioning can improve things a great deal.

Everything else - I would leave it for now. I don't think that your concerns are a speaker or source component problem. Also, changing too many variables can make it difficult to find just what it is that is holding your system back.

[Jalen01]

Thanks guys,

Ricktate: With Dem Dar La Scalas and such I can imagine you not needing a center. I bet you get a wall of sound anyway.

DND : You make some very good points. My pioneer is also from the 97' era as well. I guess I was in the mode of thinking that, Heck Dolby Digital is Dolby Digital, wheather if it's a newer reciever or not. I've only heard DTS in the theaters, and couldn't really tell much of a difference from DD. For all of these newer formats like: dts es, dd ex, 6ch, 7ch, and soon 10-12ch. I think they are getting crazy with all of these formats. But, I would still like to have DPLII & Regular DTS some day. But again if there are advances in steering on the newer chips then I guess I gotta have them.

As far as speaker positioning goes, my center is about 2' above my fronts. But, this is the only way I could run it now. I Have Played with Toe-in, no toe-in, tilted center and non. The Paradigm also don't suffer from these type configurations, maybe because of the on-off axis response.

I know some of you may be thinking, "get a darn RS spl meter, and HT set-up disc". Well, I have those too, and my system is currently set-up via those.

I still would like to hear some more comments on how Your systems sound (Panning & On screen efx etc etc...). Come on Guys, help a guy out here. I don't have a Klipsch Dealer here in My area to compare better rigs (I bought My Speakers On Rep & Reviews alone). So, I need your help.

Jalen

[tripod]

How far back from your fronts and center do you sit? That may have something to do with separation of channels and the center not being tied to the screen.

[Jalen01]

Yes,

Tripod: Yet another interesting point, that I've been fiddling around with of late. I originally set my delay times to 7', which is the same as distance to my couch. I just set the delays to the other extreme at 1', the dynamics were just to strong for Us to watch a movie anymore (Scaring the chit out of 2month old Daughter. Who knows what my apt. dwelling neighbors are thinking LOL). But, on the same note I'd like to get futher info on your distance theory.

Thanks,

Jalen

[prodj101]

I think my sounds pretty good. I have SF-2's in front, SF-1's in rear, SC-1 center, and RSW-15 sub. I like how it sounds. The SC-1 makes the tv ripple when it gets loud enough though, which sucks.

[Invidiosulus]

Here is my setup,

A pair of 1981 klipsch Heresy for the mains.

A ksc-c1 as the center channel.

A pair of JBL L46 from circa 1981-83

For a Receiver I have the Yamaha HTR-5540($299.00 at best buy)

As you can see this is not much of a matched set of speakers.

Also I have no sub(yet).

The suround effects I get with this setup are certainly fine to my ears, the only real problem is that the JBL's just don't have the midrange the Klipsch have.

It does seem like something weird is going on here but I did have a question, was the movie being displayed on the Paradigm system one that you have or are really familiar with.

I would certainly say that not all movies are mixed equal, which may explain the difference of some dialogue staying on screen and other sounds seeming wider.

Fwiw, the Yamaha I have offers DTS, DD5.1, DDPLII and a bunch of dsp modes.

It also does not seem to have the curse of the noisy hiss that some other lower priced receivers tend to have.

Just my 2cents.

Peace, Josh

[skonopa]

My setup sounds really good. I get beautiful pans, both left-right and front-back (that rear center sure does help with that ). It also sound good, with the dialog locked to the screen even off axis, and despite that my center is mounted a bit higher than I'd like.

I think the things that help is that I am running a very modern reciever (Denon AVR3802), plus I did take the time to check speaker placement as well as sound levels and delays. For placement, I used a trick mentioned here (HornED?) of using a laser pointer to help aim the speakers at the sweet spot. I adusted the delays (first using a tape measure to get a good idea of actual distances), until I found what I liked. I then used a "Ratometer" to adjust the sound levels.

I think that using more modern recievers/processor probably would help in getting better sound "steering" and channel seperation and so forth. Yes, Dolby Digital is Dolby Digital, but the implementations of it seem to get better - newer/faster DSPs, more powerful processors, the underlying software being tweaked to get better performance and so forth. First thing I would do is revisit the speaker placement and sound levels (the no-cost solution). After that, perhaps see if it is possible to at least borrow a newer reciever and see how that works. Also, would room acoustics be a consideration?

[Jalen01]

That's great news guys,

I didn't think I was gonna get very many responses. I guess I'm starting to earn a bit of a whiners Rep. around here (114+ views and only 3 replies as of yesterday afternoon). It seems as if everyone agrees, that a new Av reciever would do me the most amount of good. So, I'm gonna bump it up to the top of my upgrade list. I mean it is one of the last pieces from my first ventures in DVD Video. Next to my TV & VCR. Now getting my wifes' approval is another story. She falls under the same category as most wives, you know ( "sounds good to me and the little lights are still working". "Why do you need another one"?)

Prodj101: What AV gear and DVD player are you running? Aren't you the one with the B&K Processor+ Mcintosh amps?? Yikes.......

Josh: In their entry level room (Paradigm Micro System + Basic Yammie) they had Jim Carey "The Mask" Playing. In their mid range room (Paradigm Monitor 7 System + $1000.00 Yammie + Progressive Denon DVD) They had that Sylvester Stalone "Driven?" playing. In their high-end room (Paradigm Studio 100 System + Flagship Yammie the size of my microwave+ top shelf Denon DVD) I really didn't pay that much attention here. We were way out of my league. This was also the room that had the Paradigm 60's\Mcintosh combo that I spent most of my time listening to. So, do I own those two DVD's? No. But, my collection is pushing the 130+ mark. With titles like: Saving Private Ryan, Jurrasic Park (3), Gladiator, The Matrix, Blades(2) and all the Pixar Joints, that IMO is just a tad better than those. I don't know if you've ever auditioned Paradigm set-ups or not? But, to me whenever I've listened to Paradigm rigs (over the past 4 years) They always seemed to excel in those areas regardless the movies being played. The Only other decent\up to date HT rigs I've listened to, would be the Definitive Tech Pro Cinemas, Boston Acoustics, M&K smaller rigs and of course the CC & BB "BOSE" Offerings (mainly HTIB type set-ups. Good For HT ? on music). Whenever I heard Klipsch Or B&W speakers they were always in a 2ch set-ups (Good For Music ? On HT). So, naturally I had Paradigm Ranked Number #1 for performing well at both Music & HT. This was until I discovered Audioreview.com and read the rave reviews of the "New Klipsch Reference Music\HT" speaker systems. When It was time for my upgrade I jumped on the Klipsch Bandwagon. When I visited My Local dealers the other day and heard the cheap Micro set, I was bit disgusted at the superior HT playback (Still in the frame of mind that it was all about the speakers).

Skonopa: You really hit the nail on the head with your comments. Not only do you own Klipsch Ref. Set (Higher up the food chain, But Reference no doubt). But, you also own the very approachable JVC DVD, and the Denon 3802 which I've had my eye on for sometime now. Your also the only one that mentions that Klipsch are capable of the "panning" efx that i'm after. As for the speaker placement and other tweaks go, I've been messing around with those for the past year now. I haven't tried the "laser pointer" tweak yet. But, in a 15'X15' Livingroom filled with furniture there's only so much one could do. The acoustic pannels are out at this point ( I'd rather spend my moneys on better electronics\matching speakers). Plus the fact that We're scheduled to be packed-out for " Iceland" here at the end of January. Who knows, maybe I'll have a better environment to work with in the Military Housing over there. After the Iceland tour my wife retires from the Navy, and it's House Huntin' time. Where one of Our main goals is to have at least a finished basement or separate family room, dedicated to HT\Music alone.

Thanks once again to all whom responded. Your comments were very encouraging. I guess I'm happy again, knowing I'm only a few short upgrades away from having a good all around HT\Music System.

Jalen

[erikjohn]

Fu*king Awesome!!!

Excuse my French, but I am very happy.

EJ

[skonopa]

Jalen said:

As for the speaker placement and other tweaks go, I've been messing around with those for the past year now. I haven't tried the "laser pointer" tweak yet. But, in a 15'X15' Livingroom filled with furniture there's only so much one could do. The acoustic pannels are out at this point ( I'd rather spend my moneys on better electronics\matching speakers).

My setup is in a 14x14 foot room. I don't have any sound panels and the like either. I have enough furniture and bookcases and pictures and such around to help act as sound diffusers and such. Here is what my rig looks like (courtesy of Justin's Soundwise.org website). It seems like that other then playing with speaker placement (which you seem to have done already), the only real option left is to try a more modern reciever (but with the option to exchange/return it if you don't like it).

[MrMcGoo]

I agree with the plan to replace the receiver. A lot has happened in receivers since 1997. I suspect that the improvements in digital-to-analog converters will be easily heard.

I own a 10 year old Onkyo CD that was top of the line. I compared the CD player's analog output to the digital direct output from my receiver. The receiver's DACs were far superior.

Since that time I was again bitten by the upgrade bug. The new receiver is largely the same except for the addition of a firewire port. Unbeknownst to me Pioneer had tweaked the DACs. The newer machine has an even better sound with only a year's minor modifications.

My best advice would be to find a Klipsch dealer that will let your listen to receivers on the RF-3s with your own music or movie material.Your ears can help make a decision on which machine sounds best with the RF-3s.

By the way, my system with reference speakers sounds better than any theater that I have ever heard IMO. It has taken over a year and a lot of bucks to do it, but the results are there.

Bill