Deang Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Just got done surfing the Asylum archives for the last 3 hours and my back is killing me. I read about 1000 posts about PIO's, and it was certainly love or hate with these things. 1000 posts all saying the same thing. Very informative stuff. They suck. No they don't. No highs. Great highs. Rolled off. Natural. No detail compared to Hovlands. Hovland detail is 'fake' detail (whatever in the hell that means) Muddy. Liquid. What B.S. A complete waste of time. So, anyone here want to offer more insight than I got from the loony bin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 In what context will you be using the oils are we talking amps, crossovers what ?? Remember for Amps the ones I use are oil but not paper in oil !! There film,foil and oil. The .022 I use for phono section are even stranger there Paper , Oil , Film and foil. If your researching what to put in the 299B I'm up for whatever your wallet and the amp size wise can take. But you heard the 299a didn't it sound sweet so why even look further unless of coarse your donig this research for crossovers. Dean I really think you should change your handle on here to WHIRLWIND Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 21, 2002 Author Share Posted December 21, 2002 No, no...do your thing with the Scott. This is for the Apollos, which currently have Hovlands in the coupling cap positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 I think I have written and debated on this issue of Jensen Copper Foil PIO vs film/foils so much, my head has rotated on its access. Whether it's in a speaker crossover or coupling position, everyone has an opinion on oil caps. I have given up arguing about what one SHOULD have and only now seemingly respond to posts lambasting the Paper in oils as POOR spec devices or slow and muddy. In the right circuit, a good paper in oil like the Jensen or Audio Note can sound extremely smooth and liquid, while at the same time revealing excellent, natural, harmonically correct detail. The good Paper in oils like the Jensen Copper examples (the Angelas are the same thing as were the older Audio Notes) are the antithesis of GRAINY; it is the most grainless cap out there, although I have not heard the latest Jupiter Bees wax variety getting raves. Yes, the Copper Oils verge on an almost liquid-like delivery and do not sound rolled off per say. They have GREAT extension without ever sounding unnaturally forward. I have found that some might prefer the slight bit more bite to the sound that could be provided by the film caps. The Jensen are really smooth WITH detail that is extremely natural but are a tad less forceful in the transient response. But I think they sound more natural, personally. Great thing is it's a REALLY easy thing to sub and test. Now that I see these are for your Apollo SET, I would definitely give them a try. The Jensen's take a LONG time to break in, however. But I think it's worth giving it a go. Definitely. And while you're at it, you might try the Jupiter caps as well. Not sure how many coupling caps the Apollo uses. My amps require four total. Shop around for the best prices as a few places carry the Copper Oil Jensen's. Welborne carries the new Jupiter caps (Les Lammers prefers these but I haven't heard them as I said). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Hey guys, ill take a book to understand all this for christmas! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 22, 2002 Author Share Posted December 22, 2002 If we had a decent search engine on this site I wouldn't have had to put you through this again. As it is -- I had to wait all night to get the scoop once more. However, as you well know, I have the attention span of a gnat, and the repetition is helpful:) Yes, the Jupiters seem to be the rage now. However, I will go with the proven Jensens just the same. The Apollos use two per amp. Thanks, Anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 The more people weigh in here, the more it will mimic the findings via the Tube/SET Asylum. Basically, you are talking differences in taste here. It's almost a flavor issue. To be honest, I dont think many of the people in this forum who criticize oil caps in the coupling area have ever HEARD them. Going by measurements is something that will bring you to the false answer as well. Still, some want more SNAP and feel they are not quite as aggressive here. AGain, they are just so natural though. Still, I think you can get great sound from a number of cap options. Oils do tend to go well with horns, however. You just have to break down and TRY THEM. That is the only way you will decide. With only four caps needed for your amps, it's not that bad. Basically, you are talking in the neighborhood of $80 for the caps. The Jupiters are actually less right now. I think having both oils and films on hand is good. As long as youre careful, you can try either depending on mood. The oils really do shine on acoustic instruments. They have this endearing natural, relaxed presentation that is really addictive. They seem to promote listening IN to the music...or WITHIN the music, something a good SET amplifier already does well. I always liken listening to the 2A3 SET as sort of a "mouth watering" experience when it's good. In other words, my mouth has literally WATERED while listening to certain recordings. It's a very strange happening and one that Fini would enjoy on his off hours... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Those Jupiters are just Aluminum, aren't they? With Copper or silver lead termination. Then the Jensen Aluminum caps are around the same price, according to Ronnie's site. 80 bucks for 4 caps?! Yikes! But I do understand the point in a simple circuit with minimal parts. I need four oils, but not eightie bucks worth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelion Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Hi, I am looking for NOS PIO , Jensen is cheap comparing with tcc , not to say WE. Audio grade PIO is much different from motor run. I pay 80 still can't win the 1mf tcc a pair. 1ust lose a WE 4mf at about 50. I agree with Kelly, few people have listened to good PIO caps, those have the experience pay big money to get them. To be fair, try the good reputation one before you say PIO is no good, Jensen will only be a good start. Kelly is also right that PIO need break in, asylum has opinion to break in these caps at the designed voltage say 600V before put on the circuit which have a lower voltage as a reserve. So try a break in good PIO, then you will do what I am serching. It is much more difficult to get than tungsol, kenrad vt231 , or metal base 6sn7w take 6sn7 as a comparison to PIO caps, anyone knows how to get these NOS PIO will be much appreciated. Apart from PIO, Jensen has good electrolytic 4-pole caps, I am trying them and copper PIO in my Jadis 300B. Tubelion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Yeah, Jim! I'm with you. I think the copper ones are prettier, if that helps. BTW, has anyone made a Lucite chassis? Why flip the amp over, when you can just look through the chassis? Kind of like one of those clear phones, or the original iMac. Never mind... fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 22, 2002 Author Share Posted December 22, 2002 Mike, Would you believe beeswax and paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Those Jupiters or Jenson could be shoehorned into a Scott. Dean you up for the cash layout ? Wonder how they would sound ! It would cost $96 plus shipping to do a 299B in the most important spots that's only about $70 extra to give them a try ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Dean, The Jensen copper/paper-in-oil caps I now have in the pp amp are easily worth the time and trouble (but then I was replacing metalized film, not Hovland film-foil). I suggest you try it. The Jupiters are probably also great. Based on reviews their absolute value is close to the Jensens. On the other hand, the Jensens and Jupiters may be in a class of their own. When I hear "rolled off high freq." as a description of a component or technology improvement I consider the possibility that what the listener really misses is the artificial hf intensity (hi-fi sound) caused by the addition of harmonic sum and difference frequencies that are products of intermodulation and harmonic distortion. Listen to the sound of a real, unamplified, acoustic instrument. Then listen to a recording on your system. They should be in the same ballpark in terms of "power spectral density." That is relative acoustic energy in any frequency region should be similar from real to recorded. I find that the Jensen caps significantly clean-up the high end of my amp. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 22, 2002 Author Share Posted December 22, 2002 "When I hear "rolled off high freq." as a description of a component or technology improvement I consider the possibility that what the listener really misses is the artificial hf intensity (hi-fi sound) caused by the addition of harmonic sum and difference frequencies that are products of intermodulation and harmonic distortion." I think this statement, and the substance of your post in general -- is very much along the same lines of what Kelly is saying as well. Thanks Leo. Craig, gee I don't know -- those Russian caps sound pretty good to me. How about we replace those cans with some Black Gates:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Well Dean, there has to be some sort of electrode in the Jupiters. I'm sure it isn't just beeswax and paper alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 I have in my possession the technical article on the Jupiters but I was told by the owner not to post it anywhere on the net. Oh well. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 I just put a pair of the Jupiters in my Laurels. I am still trying to understand the changes they made compared to the Hovlands they replaced. Could it be they need to break in? I cannot venture an opinion yet; only listened to an hour or so of music so far. I will say they are BIG. For a .1uF cap to be the size of a half roll of Life Savers, well, yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Some may disagree, Oh well! But they going take longer than a hour to break in. I would geuss a week, or whatever hours of music you listen to in a weeks time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 I personally have found that some caps take quite some time to really settle my russians are on the bright side and mellow with age. I still would like to try these Wax ones out. Thought I might get Dean to flip the bill !! Now he's talking black Gates your really into some Cheese there !!! $230 for 2 47uf @ 500V for the B+ filtering WOW !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 You con Dean hard enough, you might be able to experience all those Boutique caps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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