Are Audio Manufacturers Liable for False Claims, Bloated Spec's?

[captainbeefheart]

I am still hoping the owner removes the output transformer cover so we can see the output transformers, it's just 4 screws and probably take all of 10 minutes.

 

 

[captainbeefheart]

One more thing to throw into this mess is the fact that in the specs list power at different output load impedances yet the output transformer does not have separate secondary taps for different loads.

 

If you use a single impedance tap for two different loads, say 4 and 8 ohm loads you certainly will not have the same power or distortion figures respectively. For this amplifier to claim such a thing it would need separate secondary taps for different loads in order to reflect the same primary load to the tubes. With one tap you are reflecting different loads to the power tubes (halve or double) which will give very different load lines and subsequent different performance specs.

 

This thing just gets weirder and weirder.

 

 

Oh I went back and read about what people were saying about the peak power in the owners manual, they extrapolated the data from the fuse section where they discuss power in peak terms for music. I don't think this is a valid enough connection to conclude the output power specs are in peak. The math doesn't even work out for what is measured to claiming the 75 watts is peak power, I truly believe because they get 75 watts RMS out at 1kHz with 2.5% THD that is how they are rating the amplifier which is still bogus because we want the power rating to be where distortion and bandwidth all coincide with each other which would make this a true 15 watt amplifier.

[jjptkd]

32 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

I am still hoping the owner removes the output transformer cover so we can see the output transformers, it's just 4 screws and probably take all of 10 minutes.

 

 

I just pulled the bottom cover of my amp (8 screws) the whole thing needs to come apart to pull the covers off, tubes out circuit board removed just to get to the cover screws. Paul the OP at ASR has a factory built amp in route and I have no doubt he'll carefully dissect that amp and take plenty of pictures. Hopefully all questions will be answered this week just need a little patience. 

[captainbeefheart]

8 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

I just pulled the bottom cover of my amp (8 screws) the whole thing needs to come apart to pull the covers off, tubes out circuit board removed just to get to the cover screws. Paul the OP at ASR has a factory built amp in route and I have no doubt he'll carefully dissect that amp and take plenty of pictures. Hopefully all questions will be answered this week just need a little patience. 

 

I take it half the screws (nuts) are under the PCB board? Ya that's a pain in the butt and don't blame you for just waiting. Looks kinda like the board can be flipped over somewhat easily but  ya still a pain in the butt.

[jjptkd]

4 hours ago, henry4841 said:

I would not go to the trouble myself.

 

From all accounts though it is a well made great sounding amplifier so I would just forget all of this and just enjoy it or pass it along at some loss on the used market. Your speakers are not going to be seeing more then a few watts anyway and the amplifier provides way more then needed.

Yeah I don't think I'll bother or risk lugging this thing around Paul the OP at ASR has an amp in route I'll trust the measurements he pulls from that amplifier. 

 

Agree on just using the amp as I have been whatever the true power rating it sings beautifully in my home and provides plenty of power for my speakers just a little frustrating that my "destination" amplifier that I paid a significant amount of money for just 6 months ago is getting thoroughly trashed online right now. 

[jjptkd]

3 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

I take it half the screws are under the PCB board? Ya that's a pain in the butt and don't blame you for just waiting.

Yeah two of the screws are a good inch and a half under the board so it pretty much has to be removed to the limit of the wiring just to get at them not prepared to go that far at this time. 

[captainbeefheart]

3 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

Agree on just using the amp as I have been whatever the true power rating it sings beautifully in my home and provides plenty of power for my speakers just a little frustrating that my "destination" amplifier that I paid a significant amount of money for just 6 months ago is getting thoroughly trashed online right now. 

 

This is why we do what we do. Some may think it's to poke holes in peoples gear but that just is not the case, we are only trying to keep the manufacturers from taking advantage of consumers. The worst part is some of these larger corporations have the money to threaten slander and have these types of informative threads taken down. If a company is being deceptive in their marketing it's only fair to get the word out so people can make an educated decision on whether to purchase the product or not.

 

If you decide to keep the amp after the smoke clears I would just save some money and have a tech install some real output transformers that can handle the power that circuit can provide. Then you will truly have one killer amplifier for only a few hundred bucks more.

 

https://edcorusa.com/collections/tube-amplifier-push-pull-output-transformer/products/cxpp70-3-5k-70w-3-5k-ohms-push-pull-tube-output-transformer

 

I wouldn't even put them under the cover. I would have Edcor send black end bells and go to Napa and have them match up the red color the 275 uses and paint the end bells the same color. Black would look nice too but just a little extra effort I think in matching the chassis red color on the end bells would look really nice.

[jjptkd]

1 hour ago, captainbeefheart said:

If you decide to keep the amp after the smoke clears I would just save some money and have a tech install some real output transformers

 

 Listening to this amp for the last couple of hours it sounds fantastic I wouldn't want to risk changing it for more power that I don't really need this thing cranks to uncomfortable levels while sounding solid and unstrained. Like I've said many times before I have no complaints with the performance of this amplifier so while a significantly lower power rating would be disappointing it is what it is I suppose I guess we'll see soon enough thanks.

[captainbeefheart]

Someone over on Audiogon that purchased theirs through Music Direct got tired of waiting and removed the circuit board and took the transformer covers off and sure enough, 15 watt Edcor output transformers. The guy is upset of course and looking into what the company is going to do about it.

 

[jjptkd]

3 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

Someone over on Audiogon that purchased theirs through Music Direct 

 

The guy is upset of course and looking into what the company is going to do about it.

Yeah this has exploded all over the internet at least 5 forums nearly 40 pages of Carver bashing going on right now lots of upset people it will be interesting to see how this all works out.  

[michaelwjones]

At the end of the day, I have yet to see anyone on any forum say the amp does not sound fantastic. While it's tough to see what may have happened, isn't that why we do what we do in our spare time? Reach for fantastic sound?

 

Bob should be congratulated on that, but I suspect someone will have to pay the piper for how it was marketed.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:55 AM, captainbeefheart said:

 

If you decide to keep the amp after the smoke clears I would just save some money and have a tech install some real output transformers that can handle the power that circuit can provide. Then you will truly have one killer amplifier for only a few hundred bucks more.

 

https://edcorusa.com/collections/tube-amplifier-push-pull-output-transformer/products/cxpp70-3-5k-70w-3-5k-ohms-push-pull-tube-output-transformer

 

 

I wonder what they saved per unit going with 15watt transformers.  Maybe $100 but likely less at discounted manufacturer costs.  

 

[michaelwjones]

I think we need to keep in mind several of our forum mates now find themselves in a very uncomfortable position & empathy for them is the order of the day.

But on the silver-lining side, we have the speakers to mate with this amp and make it sound as was intended. 

[captainbeefheart]

29 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

 

I wonder what they saved per unit going with 15watt transformers.  Maybe $100 but likely less at discounted manufacturer costs.  

 

 

Proper output transformer for that amplifier is $180, two are needed for a stereo amp; $360 total

 

The 15 watt Edcor is $35 and total for two is $70

 

360 - 70 = $290

 

Multiply that by say 5,000 units

 

$1,450,000

 

I'd say it adds up to extra profit

[tigerwoodKhorns]

13 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Proper output transformer for that amplifier is $180, two are needed for a stereo amp; $360 total

 

The 15 watt Edcor is $35 and total for two is $70

 

360 - 70 = $290

 

Multiply that by say 5,000 units

 

$1,450,000

 

I'd say it adds up to extra profit

I forgot that you need two and I was looking at the $135 transformer that you listed.  I also figured a wholesale price. 

 

In any event, just charge moire for the amp and put in a proper transformer.  Heck, list it as a feature. 

 

 

[captainbeefheart]

9 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said:

I forgot that you need two and I was looking at the $135 transformer that you listed.  I also figured a wholesale price. 

 

In any event, just charge moire for the amp and put in a proper transformer.  Heck, list it as a feature. 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

Really when  you think about it the transformers are the majority of the production cost and for what they charge for this amplifier there really shouldn't need to be an increase in retail price to use the the correctly rated output transformers. Either that or just market the amplifier as a 15 watt amplifier and reduce the retail price. Especially since as you mentioned you will get a wholesale price on them. Two proper transformers at wholesale cost would be in the ballpark of $200. The rest of the amplifier parts are peanuts compared to them. Well, power transformer might be $50 wholesale. These sell for $2500!!!

 

[Travis In Austin]

1 hour ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

I agree.

 

Really when  you think about it the transformers are the majority of the production cost and for what they charge for this amplifier there really shouldn't need to be an increase in retail price to use the the correctly rated output transformers. Either that or just market the amplifier as a 15 watt amplifier and reduce the retail price. Especially since as you mentioned you will get a wholesale price on them. Two proper transformers at wholesale cost would be in the ballpark of $200. The rest of the amplifier parts are peanuts compared to them. Well, power transformer might be $50 wholesale. These sell for $2500!!!

 

Help me, once again please. 

 

I have watched the threads, this one, the one at ASR (I posted in that about Edcor's liability - zero), and the AK thread. 

 

I understand the manufacturer specs say it's a "75 watt amp." I understand that someone discovered that a "15 watt" Edcor transformer was under the cover.

 

What I would like to try and understand is what relationship the transformer rating bears to the actual output rating of the amp. Does it matter what the power tubes are? What the topology of the amp is? In other words, is it just simple math if you know what the transformer rating it? 

[jjptkd]

Here's a reply from the current owner of Carver Corp:

 

fmalitz

28 posts

01-04-2022 2:32pm

Hello everyone,

In our three labs, we all get around 75 watts @ 1% or less, 90 @ 2%, etc. 

From Jordon Gerber, ex-partner, degreed physicist and co-founder: The units are about 75 to 90 watts depending on the measurement technique. . I kept a record of every unit. The power drops at low frequencies but given the way they slam with Kef Blade IIs, the innovative towers from SpeakerLab, and Wilsons is impressive.

 From Edward Suver (our WA tech support, QC and manufacturing supervisor (we have production and QC supervisors in CA as well): That's a crazy review.  The amps actually put out 90w or so at 1k into 8ohms, one channel, with .6% distortion. Every one if them made on my watch was tested and confirmed to work. Maybe 2 or 3 in 100 put out maybe 80 to 85w at that distortion, don't know why though. They put out clean 90W down to 80Hz, and distort more as it goes down, due to the lack of steel in the output transformers. When Bob initially tested it, the crazy thing is that nobody minded it. Reviews confirm that. The frequency response is flat, it just gets distorted at lower frequencies, probably leading to "punchy" bass. And Bob argues that most have subwoofers and won't be using them below 80. For the output impedance, Bob wanted 1.7 ohm, and they usually measured 1.5 to 1.6. Never 2.5 or some BS.

 

 

I'm hoping Bob will reply but he's pretty disappointed that no one from the blog called to discuss this. First time I've seen him angry. They seem to be $600 carver 37-watt Carverfest kits made by Jordon. He made 65 kits but we never manufactured them for sale to the public.

Remember we guarantee it will sound better than what you have or you get a full refund (subject to dealer policies on time frame, etc) and we've never had one returned. We've also never been able to keep up with demand. We may need a second warehouse! I'm meeting with Bob to discuss this on Thursday (two days from now).

Frank Malitz VP/Co-Founder

The Bob Carver Co.

847-668-4519

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/peeking-inside-a-carver-crimson-275-tube-amplifier?page=2

[Zen Traveler]

2 hours ago, michaelwardjones said:

I think we need to keep in mind several of our forum mates now find themselves in a very uncomfortable position & empathy for them is the order of the day.

But on the silver-lining side, we have the speakers to mate with this amp and make it sound as was intended. 

uh-oh:

On 12/31/2021 at 9:43 PM, Zen Traveler said:

...Fwiw, I found out my Klipsch speakers are overrated in their Sensitivity but I never felt the need to complain...

There are alot of threads on AVS saying that my RF-7s with a 101 db/1 meter can't be true.

[OO1]

7 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

Here's a reply from the current owner of Carver Corp:

 

fmalitz

28 posts

01-04-2022 2:32pm

Hello everyone,

In our three labs, we all get around 75 watts @ 1% or less, 90 @ 2%, etc. 

From Jordon Gerber, ex-partner, degreed physicist and co-founder: The units are about 75 to 90 watts depending on the measurement technique. . I kept a record of every unit. The power drops at low frequencies but given the way they slam with Kef Blade IIs, the innovative towers from SpeakerLab, and Wilsons is impressive.

 From Edward Suver (our WA tech support, QC and manufacturing supervisor (we have production and QC supervisors in CA as well): That's a crazy review.  The amps actually put out 90w or so at 1k into 8ohms, one channel, with .6% distortion. Every one if them made on my watch was tested and confirmed to work. Maybe 2 or 3 in 100 put out maybe 80 to 85w at that distortion, don't know why though. They put out clean 90W down to 80Hz, and distort more as it goes down, due to the lack of steel in the output transformers. When Bob initially tested it, the crazy thing is that nobody minded it. Reviews confirm that. The frequency response is flat, it just gets distorted at lower frequencies, probably leading to "punchy" bass. And Bob argues that most have subwoofers and won't be using them below 80. For the output impedance, Bob wanted 1.7 ohm, and they usually measured 1.5 to 1.6. Never 2.5 or some BS.

 

 

I'm hoping Bob will reply but he's pretty disappointed that no one from the blog called to discuss this. First time I've seen him angry. They seem to be $600 carver 37-watt Carverfest kits made by Jordon. He made 65 kits but we never manufactured them for sale to the public.

Remember we guarantee it will sound better than what you have or you get a full refund (subject to dealer policies on time frame, etc) and we've never had one returned. We've also never been able to keep up with demand. We may need a second warehouse! I'm meeting with Bob to discuss this on Thursday (two days from now).

Frank Malitz VP/Co-Founder

The Bob Carver Co.

847-668-4519

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/peeking-inside-a-carver-crimson-275-tube-amplifier?page=2

what do you think?   are you satisfied ,,,,, are you keeping the amp or returning it  ?