Cables...

[Deang]

...not the ones on the outside...

...but the ones on the inside.

What good does it do to think out of the box if you don't think in the box?

How about those binding posts with the nice gold plating -- ever think about the base metal the gold is covering?

Oh yeah baby, crimp those spades on good, solder those crossover connections, get yerself some fine cables -- but whatever you do, don't let your mind fall on those itty bitty POS tin clips and 3 feet of marginal wire bouncing around in the cabinet.

How can a speaker possibly render the full benefit of a good cable with the above in mind?

[Dale W]

Gezzz dean your gonna start another debate with this one. I'll just throw in what i can tell you from my own stuff.

my K'S are a little newer and have the copper colour clear cable wiring , but although my lascalas are from the same year they have the old zip cord. Yes you can hear a difference between the two but it's impossible to tell if it's a wiring thing, due to the difference in the models plus amps .

I know of guy's who have ripped there's apart and changed wires inside speakers and amps , but i've never heard the before and after to make a inteligent comment.

[NOSValves]

Because Cable and speaker wire don't make a dam bit of difference that's why !! Let the flames begin !!

EDIT:

Well unless you run some 3.5 watt distortion device that needs the larger cable to buffer out the distortion !!

[NOSValves]

Deanmister you up how about a little phone chat ??

[Deang]

Hell, we know YOU can't hear a difference.

[Deang]

I'm at work.

1 - 900 - HOT- HORN

[Dale W]

Dean: go back and edit that out before someone scratchs you name and # on the bathroom wall @ the bar . lol

[NOSValves]

You don't know Dean that is exactly what he is hoping for

[mobile homeless]

I had the wire debate with Craig via a flurry of mail a few days ago. Save your breath on this one; it's a lost cause! heh...

"I have not heard it, therefore, it does not exist" is my old pal's moniker. heh...ole Craig. Just trying to imagine a Dean and Craig phone conversation.

kh

[NOSValves]

He is right now cataloging all his interconnects and speaker wire and putting it up for sale. Then he is going to Radio shack to buy the cheapest stuff he can and then sit back happily laughing at everyone throwing there money away searching for that last 1% improvement

Craig

[Deang]

Me: "uhh, sound different -- don't know why."

Craig: "uhh, sound same."

Me: "Do."

Craig: "Don't."

Me: "Do."

Craig: "Don't"

Some additional thoughts here on this:

Two capacitors having identical values, though of different construction and design, each impart a different signature when put in the signal path and are loaded. Why? They are passive, measure the same -- yet impart a 'sound'. Hey, it's just wire with a bundle of crap around it.

Now, wire OTOH, does NOT measure the same. http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/awg.htm O.K., you can argue it's miniscule, and can't possibly make a difference, however -- there are differences, and they are measureable. Wire length, thickness, and material -- change the values. Solid core, stranded, Hepalitz, silver, gold, etc -- all measure differently from one another. Now, this is just the wire, and doesn't even factor in the dielectric, ends, and actual contact points. Capacitance and inductance are also factors here, and are measureable as well. The amazing thing here is what all this does when put to a reactive load like a speaker: http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/wired-4-sound/rwf-lampen-08.15.01.shtml

A thought here about connections: Why is soldering a good thing? Because the connection is gasless. So, air in the connection compromises the connection. If we don't solder, we crimp -- for the same reason. A cold solder joint, or loose connection introduces noise -- which is just another word for distortion. Yet, the cable we put on our binding posts is neither soldered nor crimped. A proper connection BINDS the metals together. A proper connection at the binding posts means the metal from the spades should actually be GROUND into the metal on the binding post. Then of course we have the connections on the other side of the posts, and the connections on the speaker terminal pins themselves ( I love thinking about all of the air turbulance, and electromagnetic energy floating around the inside of my RF-7's -- with those dinky clips holding everything together, and being responsible for keeping noise out of the line).

So now, what about biwiring? If cable doesn't make a difference, than biwiring shouldn't either -- but it does.

A two-way speaker with tweeter impedance of 10 ohms, and a woofer impedance of 6 ohms -- creates a 4 ohm nominal load. Single wire the speaker, and the amp sees 4 ohms. Biwire, and the amp actually reacts to the tweeter and woofer separately. I believe this is why my experiments with biwiring on tube amps have not been that successful. I don't think tube amps LIKE dealing with this type of reactive load.

So, does wire make a difference?

And yes...I am currently using a 14 gauge flat cable, where the strands are braided. The design is very similiar to the Analysis Plus Oval 9. It's pretty expensive though -- $25 for 50 feet at Radio Shack, it's called the Megacable.

Extra credit question: High frequency reproduction will be superior with:

A) Thicker cable

Thinner cable

[NOSValves]

On serious note so people don't get the wrong idea and understand where I'm coimg from.

Kelly always seems to take people rejecting his advise as a personal insult and this isn't. The reason I'm not going down the high dollar interconnect and speaker wire road is pretty simple. I spent many years Drag racing as a hobby and in the end the quest for every last reduction in time slip was the reason I gave it up. It became a job rather than a enjoyable hobby. Its not that I think that better wire and connections can't make a difference. I just question how much difference they can really make and if the difference isn't coloring the sound and taking away its honesty. To me if it does make a difference I'm absolutely sure its small at best ! I already turned the soldering and amp upgrading portion of this hobby into a business. My system is going to stay simple. I enjoy it as it is and really see no need to change any wires or interconnects. I just don't believe in all these huge improvements in this hooby they in my opinion are very over rated.

My MMF-7 Turn Table is a classic example .

Is it a improvement over my Mid Fi JVC - yes it is

Is it a large improvement - No it isn't

Is worth the cost compared to the JVC cost-absolutly not

Will I give it up- NO (this is the problem once you start down this type of path you forget about value and sooner or later you realize what a waste it all is)

If you see this senario folding out its a endless money sink and I'm not going to ruin a perfectly enjoyable hobby with upgrade fever.

Cheers and to each his own

Craig

[cornwaller]

OH NO!...NOT ANOTHER WIRE THREAD!

[mobile homeless]

Not a personal insult. I just dnt like when people dismiss things they havent heard "period mark." If you havent noticed, preconceived notions DO NOT FIT WITH:

- Vintage audio

- tube audio

- audio in general

- Life in general

As for the wire difference, I have heard wire make as big a difference as CHANGING OUT A MAJOR COMPONENT. How clear can I be on this? I have also heard it sound WORSE. Better. And with little difference. Like everything, it depends on the version, type, system, use, and setup.

AGain, with the turntables, that may be your finding. I have and had a number of tables in my house. I have a $4k table right now spinning vinyl. I have a Linn that is over 15yrs old. I have 70s designs, both direct drive and belt drive.

My experience? In a very resolving system, the turntable makes a HUGE difference. You say it's not much and not worth the price. I say is is A LOT and makes the difference between an OK setup and one that is EXCELLENT. Ditto with CD players where many sound similar. The GOOD ones stand out and bring the performance up a major notch. I realize we just have a different take on the importance of these differences.

Obviously, the law of dimishing returns kicks in and some take this to hand more than others. Personally, I couldnt live with my lessor tables in my main system. The change, in my experience, is GREAT and well worth it. Ditto with some wire, which can REALLY bring out a piece of gear or system. I have auditioned gear that works ok only to pop in a different cable setup and find it FAR MORE outstanding. I would have never known the difference had a written off CABLE as making no to slight difference. The cable I have now performs very well at a reasonable cost. I count it as ANOTHER COMPONENT.

kh

[Deang]

Craig, like I said on the phone last night -- I definitely see where you are coming from, and to the larger degree I agree with you. I feel very much the same about tubes -- sure -- sound different, some sound 'better' than others, but I won't be spending $400 for a matched pair of preamp tubes anymore. I can tell you this -- going from the copper cables to the silver cables had more of an impact on the sound than any tube I ever swapped out.

I'm really trying to approach this from an electrical perspective devoid of voodoo. I don't think a person needs to spend big money. It's really not about the extra 2% of performance -- but more about just practicing good electronics. Good connections, superior shielding -- are part of that. As far as I'm concerned, cables and inferior connections act as antennas that introduce distortion. This is where I'm focusing my efforts right now.

Yes, I went completely overboard on the Tributaries interconnects, primarily because the decision wasn't completely thought out, being more of an impulse buy. However, what drew me to the cable was good science, and not a bunch of hyped up B.S. I liked the locking lugs, and the overall design focusing on superior shielding and impedance stability by making sure the various layers of material in the cable could move independantly of each other. Anal? Maybe. Maybe not. They did quiet down the system a little, and I'm no longer hearing a local T.V. station through the speakers at idle. The Monster 550i' were shielded, but evidently weren't capable of filtering out all of the noise. I think this is why the Belden cable does so well -- superior shielding properties. I will definitely be making a set of these for the Marantz going to the Scott.

I still maintain that it's important to solder the connections to the driver terminals, have binding posts and nuts that can withstand the force exerted by a wrench, and use shielded speaker cables from the outputs of the amp, all the way to the drivers inside the speaker. At least, this is the route I will be taking with the Apollos and RF7's.

It's as much about what sounds 'good', as it is about what doesn't sound 'bad'.

Try this very cheap experiment. Get yourself some 18 or 19 gauge magnet wire and wire up those Scalas to your Scott. You will definitely notice a smoothing in the highs, especially at high SPL's. There is NO way you won't hear this. As a matter of fact, since you have a balance control knob -- just do one speaker.

[Invidiosulus]

All this talk about cables makes me wonder what I'm "missing" with my generic 12awg monsterXP cable.

Certainly something I will have to leave alone for awhile due to my lack of budget.

Still its something for me to think about.

Peace, Josh

[Marvel]

With MY budget, I'm not going to swap out my zip cord any day soon. I just want to add to my speaker collection first.

Hope Invidiosulus is feeling better today?

Marvel

[Deang]

You can make your own cables for next to nothing, and they would certainly do better than generic zip cord or Monster.

[mobile homeless]

I cant believe I still even read these zip cord comments... It's as if those possessed are proud to be using the same wiring located in their 1972 imitation Toll Lamp. What gives? Can one be this stubborn to think that all these "foolhardy" audioboons aren't hearing anything but their own pitter-patter imaginations run amok like a slinky down a doublewide crawlspace companionway? PWK, our leader, said it's so and by God if it's good enough for PWK, than it's good enough for me!

Before all hell breaks loose, I will admit, zip cord via the Cornwalls actually sounds better than a few of the more complex big buck designs if only for what it DOESN'T do to the presentation. After that, it's a complete loss to me as to how anyone with two ears and anything decent can not hear the difference between something like zip cord and a proper, yet simple, design like the Jon Risch Belden option, which can be made on the cheap with a handful of parts less expensive than three or four CDs. If anyone is halfway proficient with a soldering iron, than you have no excuse not to do some experiments with magnet wire interconnects or some Belden coax speaker wire (hell, you can actually make the IC from parts obtained at the local Radio Shack). Again, the difference is not subtle. What happened to curiosity? I must be coming from outer space here in that I love trying things that might add to my enjoyment of my system, especially when had on the cheap. After discovering the countless tweaks that HAVE made a difference, wire is actually one of the few you don't have to strain your Gold EArz to ascertain, especially when you happen upon a sound design compared to thy standard 18 gauge zip cord.

kh

ps- Yeah, I am still peeved that the Titans ousted the ole Steelers. Damn Zip Cord Titans! heh...

[NOSValves]

Something came to me from my conversation with Dean that really makes sense to me. First off what is the purpose of a speaker wire or interconnects ? I would say to deliver the signal its passing unaltered to the speaker or Amp . I'm beginning to wonder what most of you are hearing here. I would venture to say that the high dollar offering your using are actually altering the signal and masking other problems in your system. A basic 14 or 16 gage descent quality insulated speaker wire 10' long measures basically zero resistance and zero competence so how could it not do its job ?? The only way it could change the signal would be through outside RF leaking in which if this is the case you would hear it like in what Dean described above (which seems like he has something strange going on there). I myself would much rather spend my money perfecting the signal going into the wire rather than spend my cheese buying wire to mask my systems problems ! Just a thought

Craig

This would also explain why Dean finds one cable works great on one amp and not on another would it not ? I would think that the very best cable whatever that maybe should work perfect on every system. Its job is to pass the signal purely in a unaltered fashion !