OO1 Posted December 29, 2023 Share Posted December 29, 2023 6 hours ago, aperfectcircle said: I’m sure the Willsenton is a decent piece of kit but the Cary is likely going to be a safer and better investment. too bad you're not considering the Wilsenton R8 , there's something very special about that amp , put it against more expensive tube amps in a blind test , the R8 may surprise you with CW IV speakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted December 30, 2023 Share Posted December 30, 2023 On 12/27/2023 at 12:36 PM, Marvel said: You beat me to it, Henry. I powered my JBL 4311s with 2A3 monoblocks, and still was ok with the power most of the time. IIRC, the JBLs are only 89db sensitivity. The Cornwalls should be pretty good with a 300B amp. 4311. 🙂 My ex wife stole those. 🙄 Replaced years later with 4430.and aKH 😀😀😀 JBL L36 deserve a mention as a nicely balanced speaker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aperfectcircle Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 On 12/29/2023 at 7:22 PM, henry4841 said: What many do not know is that an active device, tube or transistor, sounds best when it has to work the hardest. Most audio designers run tubes on the output stage of a SET tube amplifier at 80% of max for tubes and transistors in a class A amp around 35% to 40% of max. Max for both will sound best, that is before they self destruct. Both are being working hard at 80% and 35% respectically. For tech minded geeks it means we run a lot of current through them both. Tubes are designed to run really hot whereas transistors in class A are generally run at 55C degrees which requires big heatsinks and hardware to keep them cool. This is one of the reasons high end audio buffs prefer class A. You are probably aware from research already that the audio signal in class A is left as pure as possible and not manipulated as in class B. In class B the transistor is off until it detects a signal then turns on. This creates what is called in a class B PP amplifier as crossover distortion where the audio signal is split into with one section handling the positive part of the signal and another the negative. In a class A/B amplifier the active devices are run with some current where they will be on some but run more current when a larger signal is detected. In other words a class A amplifier at low volumes and turns into class B at higher volumes. Hence the name Class A/B. I am not that knowledgeable on class D. I have read the principles on class D operation but have not fully absorbed where I understand it fully. Too old and forgetful these days but from what little I remember 5 or more years ago a really high frequency signal is attached to the audio signal then filtered out before driving a speaker. Perhaps more talented people on this forum can explain class D operation better. Class D operation has come a long way since I first read about it in the 70's or 80's and many these days sound really good. I have many of them as well as many of the other forms of amplification. I have to admit I’m not as technically knowledgeable as you are, but have a general understanding. That said, my experience with class D has been let’s say, less than stellar. Not bad, per se, but very boring and clinical. I just find the presentation to be unappealing. My little Bluesound does a decent job, and is great for general AV and background music duties, but it just lacks that wow factor. I’d be interested in hearing some of the more advanced and pricey class D options for comparison though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 1 hour ago, aperfectcircle said: I have to admit I’m not as technically knowledgeable as you are, but have a general understanding. That said, my experience with class D has been let’s say, less than stellar. Not bad, per se, but very boring and clinical. I just find the presentation to be unappealing. My little Bluesound does a decent job, and is great for general AV and background music duties, but it just lacks that wow factor. I’d be interested in hearing some of the more advanced and pricey class D options for comparison though. The TPA 3255 amp boards with a switching power supply sound really good. Ebay has a number of sellers. I have two of them one with the original Texas Instruments proto board and a Chinese one both built with linear power supplies. Most use a switching supply with them and give good reviews. The TPA3255 boards are used in a number of retail amps. You can hear what they sound like for less than $200, at least that was the cost the last time I checked. Who knows what the price of anything will be these days until the day you want to buy something. I could live with one of them if had to. Tubes still rule when it comes to sound though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aperfectcircle Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 On 12/29/2023 at 10:47 PM, OO1 said: too bad you're not considering the Wilsenton R8 , there's something very special about that amp , put it against more expensive tube amps in a blind test , the R8 may surprise you with CW IV speakers I did write a reply but something must have gone awry! I have ended up with the Willsenton R300 and couldn’t be happier. I was strongly leaning to the Cary, as I’ve been very keen on going to a simple 300B amp. The R300 is stunning, right out of the gate with no hours on it. Even my fiancée had an immediate reaction of “this sounds much better” though in comparison to the Bluesound. The sound is big, three dimensional, and vocals sound sublime. Bass is fantastic too which was a big worry. I actually think the R300 beats the PrimaLuna I had, at least in some areas, but considering the price it’s a killer and I don’t think I’ll be looking to change for some time (tube rolling notwithstanding after getting some serious hours on the stock kit). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 On 12/29/2023 at 7:22 AM, henry4841 said: You are probably aware from research already that the audio signal in class A is left as pure as possible and not manipulated as in class B. In class B the transistor is off until it detects a signal then turns on. This creates what is called in a class B PP amplifier as crossover distortion where the audio signal is split into with one section handling the positive part of the signal and another the negative. In a class A/B amplifier the active devices are run with some current where they will be on some but run more current when a larger signal is detected. In other words a class A amplifier at low volumes and turns into class B at higher volumes. Hence the name Class A/B. One misconception about the class A versus class A/B when using speakers like most of us use around here. Quality Class A/B tube amps with some headroom will barely ever leave class A operation, when they do its usually for a heavy hitting very brief transient or bass note comes into play. I personally think for us high efficiency speaker users class A amplifiers are a waste of money, energy and tubes! With me the disadvantages of class A out ways the advantages which I can not think of one advantage. In fact, I have designed a number of class A push/pull tube amps and could never find a reason to release one over my Class A/B VRD's. As many that have been around here know I do not at all care for single ended tube amps. They make many happy which is the point of this hobby, I'm just not one of them. To me the sound is just too unrealistic and distortion laden I could care less what order it is... Cheers Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 wrong thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 1 hour ago, NOSValves said: One misconception about the class A versus class A/B when using speakers like most of us use around here. Quality Class A/B tube amps with some headroom will barely ever leave class A operation, when they do its usually for a heavy hitting very brief transient or bass note comes into play. I personally think for us high efficiency speaker users class A amplifiers are a waste of money, energy and tubes! With me the disadvantages of class A out ways the advantages which I can not think of one advantage. In fact, I have designed a number of class A push/pull tube amps and could never find a reason to release one over my Class A/B VRD's. As many that have been around here know I do not at all care for single ended tube amps. They make many happy which is the point of this hobby, I'm just not one of them. To me the sound is just too unrealistic and distortion laden I could care less what order it is... Cheers Craig When a class A/B amplifier leaves class A all depends on how the designer biased the amplifier. With a diyaudio.com SS class A/B amplifier called the Honey Badger, designed by all the talented members from all over the world on that forum, I biased mine slightly higher than normal for it to never leave class A with my horns. Remarkable sounding SS class A/B amplifier by the way with multiple output stages. I will agree with our speakers, who normally never leaves the 1st watt window, most all retail class A/B amplifiers will operate in class A unless pushed very hard. Different story with conventional speakers depending on their efficiency rating. As far as single ended class A operation it is still considered the purest form of amplification due to the fact the audio signal is not manipulated in any form such as being split into with the positive side of the waveform amplified with one circuit and the negative phase amplified by another as in a push pull amplifier then joined back together to drive the speaker. SET tube amplifiers who all are operated in class A are not everyone's cup of tea for sure being sound is so subjective but the form of amplification I like best. More entertaining to me even though it does have some 2nd harmonics. Our hobby is not kidney dialysis but entertainment as Nelson Pass says. Nice to be able to choose. I have many class A/B amplifiers I switch in and out of my system for variety that I enjoy very much. It is between SE and PP amplification one can hear a distinctive difference in sound. I do enjoy them both with my preference being a SET tube amplifier. Single ended with some 2nd harmonics vs PP with a more sterile sound, cleaner as many will say, with very low distortion numbers. Nelson Pass has said he intentionally added some 2nd harmonics into some of his PP SS amplifier designs and they sold very well. As I have said before I believe every serious audiophile should have one of both. A single ended amplifier and a push pull amplifier. Both are available in SS and tube amplifiers though SE SS amplifiers are not that common. I only know of them in high end audio. Most all SS amplifiers are PP amplifiers unless you are talking class D which is going to be the amplification form for the masses in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, henry4841 said: When a class A/B amplifier leaves class A all depends on how the designer biased the amplifier. With a diyaudio.com SS class A/B amplifier called the Honey Badger, designed by all the talented members from all over the world on that forum, I biased mine slightly higher than normal for it to never leave class A with my horns. Remarkable sounding SS class A/B amplifier by the way with multiple output stages. I will agree with our speakers, who normally never leaves the 1st watt window, most all retail class A/B amplifiers will operate in class A unless pushed very hard. Different story with conventional speakers depending on their efficiency rating. As far as single ended class A operation it is still considered the purest form of amplification due to the fact the audio signal is not manipulated in any form such as being split into with the positive side of the waveform amplified with one circuit and the negative phase amplified by another as in a push pull amplifier then joined back together to drive the speaker. SET tube amplifiers who all are operated in class A are not everyone's cup of tea for sure being sound is so subjective but the form of amplification I like best. More entertaining to me even though it does have some 2nd harmonics. Our hobby is not kidney dialysis but entertainment as Nelson Pass says. Nice to be able to choose. I have many class A/B amplifiers I switch in and out of my system for variety that I enjoy very much. It is between SE and PP amplification one can hear a distinctive difference in sound. I do enjoy them both with my preference being a SET tube amplifier. Single ended with some 2nd harmonics vs PP with a more sterile sound, cleaner as many will say, with very low distortion numbers. Nelson Pass has said he intentionally added some 2nd harmonics into some of his PP SS amplifier designs and they sold very well. As I have said before I believe every serious audiophile should have one of both. A single ended amplifier and a push pull amplifier. Both are available in SS and tube amplifiers though SE SS amplifiers are not that common. I only know of them in high end audio. Most all SS amplifiers are PP amplifiers unless you are talking class D which is going to be the amplification form for the masses in the future. Not sure why you post things in response you me that you ought to know I'm very aware of... your first paragraph is what I'm talking about. Do you really need to go to such length to agree with me? Okay... "As far as single ended class A operation it is still considered the purest form of amplification due to the fact the audio signal is not manipulated in any form such as being split into with the positive side of the waveform amplified with one circuit and the negative phase amplified by another as in a push pull amplifier then joined back together to drive the speaker." The above is just plain wrong...Do single ended amp split the signal no they do not but they also do not have some straight wire honest reproduction either...You prefer it and that is okay I have no problem with it. But let's be clear adding 5 to 10% distortion is absolutely adding something or is manipulating the signal regardless of what order of distortion it is...it is indeed distortion. Singal ended amp indeed do it in the euphoric way that can be addictive but it is very far from the signal that enters the amplifier... "The term distortion usually refers to a deviation from the original perfect form. In sound contexts this is a deviation from the perfect, desired sound curve." Distortion refers to the altering or deformation of an audio signal's original waveform. Technically, any kind of audio processing (EQ, compression, time-based effects, etc.) alters an audio signal, but in audio production, the term is used to describe either intentional or undesired sonic destruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 First of all, and this is the most important thing about this thread from my point of view, @aperfectcircle has made a decision that he is happy with. Apart from all the electrotechnical considerations, this is the core of this thread. Someone has chosen an amp and he has made a good choice for himself personally. My two cents on the question, SET or push pull. I'm deliberately not going to go into technical differences, distortion, unpleasant or pleasant distortion, realistic reproduction, etc. Just my personal experience. SET, I have two such amps, an Assemblage 300B and an Audion Silvernight 300B. These amps impress me because of their impressive holographic reproduction of midrange tones. For example, in a 1960s recording with Wes Montgomery, the Hammond B3 with Leslie speaker and rotating horns. It's breathtaking and I hear it in a dimension that probably only an SET can reproduce. It's like a sound sculpture, I don't care about (added) distortion at that moment. But from my point of view, these are the cream slices, the chocolate pieces of SET. I've tried it several times...after a week at the latest I'm fed up with SET amps. It's as if a SET chooses its chocolate pieces. But it doesn't fulfil its obligation to reproduce a piece of music satisfactorily in all its requirements. I miss the even sound pressure in all frequency ranges at all volume differences. It tires and annoys me after a few days. A push pull amp, and there is still the question of whether with or without feedback, tube or SS, makes my listening more satisfying in the long term and I never get tired of listening to it even if such isolated highlights as the sound of this Wes B3 via SET don't come alive in the same way. Yes, it remains a little flatter using PP, but in the end the reproduction of the whole band and its musical structure is more important to me which is there, so for me personally, push pull amps do that better. They reproduce the overall picture with authority across the entire spectrum. Since the 90s, I have repeatedly tried SET, always with the result of disappointment in the long run. Actually, I only have these amps because I haven't sold them yet. They haven't been running for 20 years. It's different with my two Leak Stereo 20, push pull EL84 with 10 watts. I mention the Leak to avoid objections that I am comparing 100 watts with 7 watts. For the desert island, three times better the Leak Stereo 20 than a SET. For me, SET is a fast-moving honeymoon. I think that some people make the mistake of thinking that they have very effective speakers with 100dB and much more, so low wattage SET would be ok. But they have made the calculation without the impedance. A highly effective speaker cannot compensate for its probably irregular impedance characteristics across the frequency spectrum. Ok, now I've got a bit technical. An SET without feedback will always exactly mirror the impedance curve of a speaker in its freq. response. That alone is a roulette game as to whether it sounds good or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, KT88 said: wrong thread. Well I got the first half of your post by what it said I sure wish you'd of left it up I'd enjoyed reading the rest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 16 minutes ago, NOSValves said: Well I got the first half of your post by what it said I sure wish you'd of left it up I'd enjoyed reading the rest! I didn't want to diminish the joy of the topic opener. I hadn't seen his post before I wrote it. But because I wanted to show my point of view on the subject of SET amps, I have just rewritten it in the hope of not detracting from the thread opener's satisfaction but still showing my opinion on SET. In that sense, the new post contains everything the deleted post said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 minutes ago, KT88 said: I didn't want to diminish the joy of the topic opener. I hadn't seen his post before I wrote it. But because I wanted to show my point of view on the subject of SET amps, I have just rewritten it in the hope of not detracting from the thread opener's satisfaction but still showing my opinion on SET. In that sense, the new post contains everything the deleted post said. Yeah I read the revised post. Looks good to me! Thanks Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, NOSValves said: Not sure why you post things in response you me that you ought to know I'm very aware of... your first paragraph is what I'm talking about. Do you really need to go to such length to agree with me? But let's be clear adding 5 to 10% distortion is absolutely adding something or is manipulating the signal regardless of what order of distortion it is...it is indeed distortion. 2 hours ago, NOSValves said: You quoted me is the only reason I quoted you back. Nothing devious just posting back to you my opinion and findings over 50 years of my audio and electronic journey. I welcome a gentlemanly discussion, difference of opinion if kept civil. Also the figure of 2nd harmonic distortion you quoted is not the amount I have seen or measured with quality built single ended amps.The last SET KT88 amplifier I built had numbers of .22% on one channel and .27% distortion on the other at 1 watt predominantly 2nd harmonic. The build was documented in detail on this site a year or more ago with snapshots of distortion readings. Nelson Pass' in his SS single ended amps have 2nd harmonic numbers in the .5% range and not 5%. The number of 5% would make the music sound clownish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 38 minutes ago, henry4841 said: You quoted me is the only reason I quoted you back. Nothing devious just posting back to you my opinion and findings over 50 years of my audio and electronic journey. I welcome a gentlemanly discussion, difference of opinion if kept civil. Also the figure of 2nd harmonic distortion you quoted is not the amount I have seen or measured with quality built single ended amps.The last SET KT88 amplifier I built had numbers of .22% on one channel and .27% distortion on the other at 1 watt predominantly 2nd harmonic. The build was documented in detail on this site a year or more ago with snapshots of distortion readings. Nelson Pass' in his SS single ended amps have 2nd harmonic numbers in the .5% range and not 5%. The number of 5% would make the music sound clownish. A convenient SET lovers specification .. measure distortion at 1 watt.... The industry standard is at full power.. which is what my quote represented ... If you measure a quality PP amp at 1 watt the distortion would be too low to accurately measure .. I could care what your supposed industry giants have to say .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 I thought 1 watt was full power with those things.🙃 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Deang said: I thought 1 watt was full power with those things.🙃 Good humor!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 11 hours ago, NOSValves said: A convenient SET lovers specification .. measure distortion at 1 watt.... The industry standard is at full power.. which is what my quote represented ... If you measure a quality PP amp at 1 watt the distortion would be too low to accurately measure .. I could care what your supposed industry giants have to say .. Why be rude? My understanding is you are or have been a seller of PP tube amplifiers on this forum and your opinion and what you have to say is naturally biased because of that. SET tube amplifiers are made for efficient speakers like our horns where just a few watts are all that is needed so the measurement at 1 watt is all I cared about when running my test because for a SET's intended purpose just a few watts is sufficient. Why care what the distortion number is at a wattage number you will never reach? My experience with a PP tube amplifier is there is not a lot difference in sound from one and a good SS PP amplifier without the need to replace the output tubes every couple of years. If one is a number chaser you will also have better distortion numbers with a SS PP amplifier but it really does not matter because any number less the .5% is not going to heard by the majority of people anyway. If you do not care about what the best in audio design industry have to say that says a lot. Personally I take it serious what they say and have to contribute. I am always glad to hear and learn more from them. Facts and truths are important to me. If anyone is like me and want to learn what the best in the sound industry have to say the Burning Amp Festival videos is a good place to learn. https://burningampfestival.com/videos/ The years not posted there can be found on youtube if you search for Burning amp festival and they go back many years. People fly in from all over the world every year to hear what the best in the sound industry have to say. God bless and have a good day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Man, I remember this rabbit hole. I don’t agree with your generalization of push pull sound Henry. Same with SET. Different topologies just sound different. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, henry4841 said: Why be rude? My understanding is you are or have been a seller of PP tube amplifiers on this forum and your opinion and what you have to say is naturally biased because of that. SET tube amplifiers are made for efficient speakers like our horns where just a few watts are all that is needed so the measurement at 1 watt is all I cared about when running my test because for a SET's intended purpose just a few watts is sufficient. Why care what the distortion number is at a wattage number you will never reach? My experience with a PP tube amplifier is there is not a lot difference in sound from one and a good SS PP amplifier without the need to replace the output tubes every couple of years. If one is a number chaser you will also have better distortion numbers with a SS PP amplifier but it really does not matter because any number less the .5% is not going to heard by the majority of people anyway. If you do not care about what the best in audio design industry have to say that says a lot. Personally I take it serious what they say and have to contribute. I am always glad to hear and learn more from them. Facts and truths are important to me. If anyone is like me and want to learn what the best in the sound industry have to say the Burning Amp Festival videos is a good place to learn. https://burningampfestival.com/videos/ The years not posted there can be found on youtube if you search for Burning amp festival and they go back many years. People fly in from all over the world every year to hear what the best in the sound industry have to say. God bless and have a good day. The rudeness (if that is what you want to call it) comes from having to put up with the same old worn out cliche that SET amps (which In reality from what I have read from you so far your are not even using) are some inherently superior amplification device when in reality the reverse is the truth. The fascination with SE amps in your case is very inticing because they are so very flat out simple to build. {cheap too} So a less talented DIYer like you can be successful at throwing one together and satisfy your ego! Building a "QUALITY" push pull amplifier that is versatile playing any musical type without strain with the ability to still have the finesse to play 3 peice jazz now that takes talent. Your comment about PP sounding like SS isn't a rude comment? It's rude to both tube amplifier designers and solid state amp designers which many awesome examples of both exist. Face it you are like reading something that has been written a thousand times..... It's hard not to be rude. Besides I really thought for me I've been nice to you... I'm like Paul Klipsch when I read BS I call BS... Little education for you SSSS stands for Single as in one single output tube EEEE stands for Ended meaning again one final output tube Here is the important one TTTT stand for Triode and usually directly heated for the utmost in euphoric sound. Which with the REAL set crowd means tubes like a single 45, 2A3 or 300B along with few uncommon others.. not Tetrode and Pentodes strapped in quasi triode mode. It also usually means zero global negative feedback which is another misleading catch phrase since most them employ feedback just not off the final output of the amp which limits them from correcting errors derived from the output transformer. Than you factor in most of you DIYer are using bargain basement mass produced iron from the likes of Edcor and Hammond. Well sorry to say much to correct with those! The proper name to call amps like you seem to be using is just SE... Oh and I've done a lot more around here than just sell PP amplifiers. Sorry you missed it all! Forget it I give up! This is boring. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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