Suggestions for turntable use

[Audio Flynn]

I got a Dual CS508 off e bay to replace my ancient Dual 510 not used in 10 years.

Wife says phono section is too bright on Dennon receiver. LOL She was not happy I caught her making a critical listening observation. I did not think it was overtly bright; just thought her comment was funny.

Considering Dynaco PAS or older NAD for temporary preamp into LEOKs PWM amp.

I am going to take the Dual to my HIFI store for new cartridge and inspection next week.

If everyone could take time to leave a suggestion or 2 for getting back into vinyl.

Items of interest:

1. Cartridge for around $100

2. Cheap way to clean(I like the VPI machine but not in the budget now); is the Allsop system or Disc Doctor system OK.

3. Record sleeves for protection

4. interconnect(not starting a major discussion on theis item)

Going to use this for a little while and pass it on to my parents. Then get an MMF-7 or somehing in that price range.

[Mallette]

I am a Grado fan, but you should get quite a bit of suggestion in this area.

Cheap way to clean: mild dish detergent (I use Palmolive), a lint-free wash cloth (I use baby washcloths), and lint free drying cloth (I use a record vacuum). Once clean they should stay that way a while and any good preener can be used to remove dust. If your water supply is less than free of minerals, you will want to use distilled either both or for rinsing.

I am still using the rice paper sleeves I purchased 20 years ago, so don't know what is available now.

As to interconnects, I don't much believe in magic copper and only go so far as to use gold plating to reduce oxidation. However, many do...but even those might question the value in a high priced interconnect for a 100.00 cartridge.

Dave

[kjohnsonhp]

I use the Disc Doctor's Miracle Record Cleaner and brushes. They are helpful for when I buy used lps but I don't use this sytem for every day cleaning.

I seem to like the Discwasher VIP sleeves the best so far for vinyl protection.

[leok]

Audio,

Was the phono still too bright using the Dennon for phono preamp, then out the tape monitor to the P6D?

leok

[Audio Flynn]

LEOK,

Yes, P6D is full time. I have not tried any other power since it arrived. Dennon is still just

-switch

-phono preamp

-tuner

Just listened to 3 records so far. Two to three times each. Cartridge is Ortofon TKS-55E.

My wife thinks the low end is a bit muted; and the highs pronounced. She would hardly even comment in the past.

Very smooth top end compared to the MSB DAC though.

Only vinyl I have heard in past 10 years has been in audio stores. It will take some time to listen and create an impression.

[Mallette]

Something isn't right there. Perhaps your wife, with her excellent feminine hearing, is experiencing that analog lack of brick cieling in the high end? Or perhaps there really is a problem.

If you are hearing an over pronounced high end as well, you want to take a look at a lot of things. Tracking weight, azimuth, anti-skate on the the TT especially. These things can also produce issues in the low end. Other things down the chain as well.

I am sure you will figure it out. It's worth the trouble...some even consider it fun.

Dave

[Audio Flynn]

I am going to take it to my hifi shop for a once over.

Do not have the "tools" as yet to work on the adjustments myself.

I thought I would get the Cardas sweep record as a way to start to understand how things should sound.

[lynnm]

I agree with Leok and Mallett - there is something very wrong here!

If anything an ailing TT will sound somewhat lacking across the audio spectrum and in general and both the top and bottom end will sound like hello while the midrange will sound "OK". I put the OK in quotes because once that TT is tweaked you will realise that even the mids had been miles off from the true vinyl sound.

My best guesses are that your TT needs to be levelled,the vertical tracking angle of the tonearm needs attention and the tracking weight is out of adjustment. There are other adjustments to consider here but let's deal with this portion first.

Adjust your tonearm to ensure that it is as close to perfectly parallel to the record surface as is humanly possible to see when the arm is playing a record. This adjustment is usually referred to as VTA is vitally important to the best possible operation of the tonearm. If you do not have a manual look for a screw on the vertical post of the tonearm that allows for the playing position of the arm to be as close to absolutely parallel to the record surface as possible.

Another consideration is stylus force. At one time the gospel was that a stylus should operate at very nearly the absolute minimum force at which it could reliably track the groove. The theory was that such a setting would guarantee optimal reproduction,minimal stylus wear and minimal record wear.

Later research revealed that a well aligned tone arm combined with a cartridge operating at very nearly its maximum tracking force gives far better performance sonically and otherwise than the same cartridge operating at the oppoosite end of its recommended operating range.

These are by no means the only considerations regarding TT setup but these should be enough to keep you awake at nights for the time being.

This is kind of like asking the town cheapskate if he is really sure that that damned light in the refrigerator really does go off and stay off when he shuts the door!

Record cleaning is best accomplished with a record cleaning machine but that is beyond the budget for many of us; The directions below apply only to vinyl LP's.

WARNING!!

Old 78 RPM records should NEVER be cleaned with alcohol as the shellac used in the surface composition will be destroyed by the formula described below !

I use the following method for vinyl LP's with good results:

Thoroughly clean your kitchen sink. Once you are satisfied that the sink is as grease/oil free as is humanly possible rinse thoroughly and then do it all over again.

Partially fill the sink with lukewarm (ie skin temperature) water and add several drops of dishwashing detergent - (warning it is better to err on the side of caution here - Too little is better than too much as excess detergent will require excessive rinsing which can lead to label damage). Add several ounces of 99% Isopropyl Alcohol to the mix.

Dip each LP into the solution and wipe the wet surface with a soft cloth. Rinse thoroughly with lukewarm water. Repeat for both sides.

Place the LP on a lint free but highly absorbent towel and then wipe the exposed surface with an absorbent and lint free towel. Flip the LP and repeat. As a practical matter I lay out a reasonably long towel and am able to repeat the process above for about 4 LP's in quick succession.

Notes:

These instructions are also suitable for 45 RPM discs

The cleaning instructions described above are acceptable for 78's and cylinder records so long as NO ALCOHOL is used in the cleaning solution. This is because most of those records were made from shellac which literally melts when exposed to alcohol. Therefore it is entirely possible to destroy an old disk with the cleaning solution described above. If you are uncertain as to the composition of an old record err on the side of safety and clean it with warm water with a little detergent - rinse thoroughly - and dry it quickly.

[AnalOg]

To level the table I have one of those 6 inch levels that I place in front on top of the table & level. then on the right side & level. After both are leveled you definetly notice a better balance left to right and the sound spectrum seems more uniform. JMTS

Tom

[leok]

You present an interesting problem. Too much high end, but smoother than the CD. I would guess that Dennon phono preamp is not filling out the low end correctly. I would expect LPs to have smooth high end and rich bass (depending on the quality of the engineering of the LP master). Can you borrow an alternate phono preamp?

This is where I find the P6D helpful, because it is so neutral it helps you get into the ballpark. With the P6D and the Chorus IIs, things should sound sonically balanced.

There is the cartridge. I did find a big improvement going from Ortophon OM-10 to Grado Gold, but the Ortophon sounded good, and wasn't skewed to the high end. By the way, I think the the Grado Gold is a good price-quality compromise. More than $100, but you have speakers and an amp that can let you hear the difference. Still, I suspect what you're really hearing is the phono preamp.

leok

[Deang]

I AM NOT suggesting anyone do this, but I have often wondered about it.

Anyone ever clean an old record in the above perscribed manner(s), and then when completely dry -- coat both sides with Armour All?

[anarchist]

Ever see how much dust Armour All pulls out of the environment? Would you be trying to play this vinyl or using it as a dust magnet.

[Audio Flynn]

I checked the level and it seemed to be fine.

After looking at the stylus with a 10 power hand lens it did not look perpindicular; the cantiliver was skewed slightly(twisted?).

needledoctor.com had a replacement listed so I ordered that online.

Along with Cardas sweep record.

Maybe then I can evaluate what I have going on for the intiial foray.

[Invidiosulus]

I think that coating a record in armorall would seriously mess with the sound.

It seems to me that since armorall is basically a coating of silicone you would be coating over the grooves in the record thus greatly inhibiting the stylus from reading the original sound.

Peace, Josh

[AnalOg]

Dean,

What would be the purpose for the armoral, to give it a nice shiney look like the rubber on a car, or is it for better performance, in regards to the needle glideing better through the groove. But seriousley I think residue of armoral would damage the cardridge over time as that residue would find its way to the magnets in the cartridge.

[artto]

On cleaning records (LP's &45's) (take note of not using alcohol on 78's & earlier recordings).

This what I use......& everyone should love it as it has multiple pruposes!

I don't like washing the vinyl. Its just too difficult to get all the microscopic crap out of there & have the records dry uniformily. The water doesn't have strong enough evaporation qualities to "lift" any remaining residue from the grooves. And it doesn't do much to eliminate static.

I have heard good things about the record cleaning machines that have a vacuum to suck all that crap out of there.

Poor man's method: Smirnoff Silver (100 proof). Yes fans, the real thing. The stuff you can drink. Isopropyl alcohol is not all that pure (as it is not for internal consumption)& is often sold as "rubbing alcohol" which contains oils/lubricants & other impurities. High quality Vodka has been refined/distilled a number of times & is much purer than isopropyl alcohol. I use it with a Discwasher preener.

After cleaning your vinyl with any type of alchohol or detergent, you will have removed some of the natural lubricating qualities inherent in the vinyl. This may cause more damage in the long run. To combat this, I use a product called GrooveGlide. Now before anyone starts chaffing me for using this stuff, please be aware that this stuff was being sold in high-end audio salons years before the nightclub DJ's started using it. GrooveGlide (when PROPERLY APPLIED)(did I mention properly applied?) puts a one molecule thick coating on the record that lubricates the groove. I have found it eliminates static charge (which in & of itself is responsible for much of the debris that gets attracted to the record in the first place), reduces groove noise, ticks & pops, seems to improve transient response & lower distortion. Bottom line: IMO records properly treated with GrooveGlide sound better. Many of my recordings that were treated with this stuff, ONCE, over 20 years ago, are still pristine & sound great with nary a pop or tick to be found anywhere. The product works similar to an automotive product called "Rain-X" which essentially does the same thing to vehicle windshields/goggles so rain runs/blows right off. This stuff was developed out of the NASA program. The key here is proper application. LESS IS MORE. Otherwise you may wind up increasing the tick/pop/groove noise in the long run. After treating the record you only need to give it a gentle wipe while the record is rotating with one of the GrooveGlide applicator pads (without additional GrooveGlide applied).

ArmorAll can produce a sort of "greasy" coating on surfaces. I wouldn't use it for vinyl recordings.

[leok]

Last "System Formula 2" is a record preservative/lubricant

Last "System Formula 4" is a stylus cleaner

Last "System Formula 5" is a stylus treatment/lubricant

They may now be packaged under the names "record preservative," "stylus cleaner," "stylus treatment."

I use all 3.

Also, before each play, I wipe records with a brush from System 2 lightly wetted with isopropyl alcohol (it doesn't remove the System 2), and then wipe with a dry brush.

When I first get records, if they're messy, I give them a mild detergent bath, as described above Next, for all new records, clean w/ isopropyl a. Then apply the System 2. System 2 lasts for 200 plays.

Lots of work, but good sound.

leok

[artto]

Almost forgot to mention:

Believe it or not, there are micro organisms that like to eat vinyl. Humidity & moisture will aggravate this which is why I don't like to wash records with water unless you have some means of thoroughly & quickly drying the record, preferably with some kind of vacuum action to lift any remaining residues out of the grooves since water does not evaporate quickly enough to "lift" these off the record. Detergents used in the water may leave residues that tend to cling to the vinyl. Use of alcohol will help to "disinfect" the vinyl & remove these microbes far better than water with detergent, especially if the moisture is allowed to linger.

I've used Last too (a long time ago). I like GrooveGlide better (so what). Also use a product called Stylast (lubricant)on the stylus. Not even sure if they make this stuff anymore. A small bottle seems to last forever.