RB5M Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I for example wonder how much of this goes on with respect to SVS on every sub forum on the internet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Man, I just finished reading those 4 pages of posts on the subject...WOW. So I went to my local Sound Advice to see what kind of specials were afoot. Come to find out, there are really no specials at all & that they have struck a deal to continue selling Klipsch...but only in Florida & one other state (forget which one--I live in Tallahassee & SA is the only storefront so I'm covered). I feel like the SA here in Tallahassee has represented Klipsch very well & I am thrilled that they have worked out this problem. I'm don't exactly have piles of cash laying around--buying those RF 7's right now is not a priority, exactly, if you ask my wife--nuf said huh! But, back to the issue here: those 4 pages. I never really figured out what the problem was with Tweeter. Did I miss it somewhere in the volumes of text? Was the posting on "grey markets" a hint? Is it possible that Tweeter can also work out a solution to continue its relationship with Klipsch? Inquiring minds want to know. From Quenten on the HT Form! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhingalala Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 ---------------- On 3/17/2003 9:42:01 AM Bill H. wrote: Man, I just finished reading those 4 pages of posts on the subject...WOW. So I went to my local Sound Advice to see what kind of specials were afoot. Come to find out, there are really no specials at all & that they have struck a deal to continue selling Klipsch...but only in Florida & one other state (forget which one--I live in Tallahassee & SA is the only storefront so I'm covered). ---------------- I agree. I too went to the local Sound Advice in Tampa, FL - not very attractive specials. The salesguy wasn't very pushy on getting rid of the Klipsch stock either. It was as if Klipsch was not getting out at all. Finally when I asked him upfront (what the deal with Klipsh withdrawing from Tweeter/SA was), he said that the deal had been renegotiated and SA would still be carrying the Klipsch. Darn ! I was hoping to take benefit of the clearance sales and all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Phil H, If I am wrong tell me to shut up, I will not be offended. klipsch distributes there speakers through a wide network. Each Klipsch speaker has a serial number. someone at Klipsch is responsible to ensure that sticker is placed on each and every speaker in a designated spot depending on the speaker. it seems to me that klipsch has little or no interest on cracking down the sales through the grey markets they could very easily cross reference serial numbers and trace their paths. The availability of Klipsch via the grey market is more than a speaker or 2 slipping out the back door. As far as the bottom feeder comment reference what you will but if one can save hundreds if not thousands what do you think the decision will be. Save money and have them delivered to your door or go to a B&M and have to lug them home yourself and pay a lot more money? IMHO Klipsch has failed Klipsch by not protecting their product. But why would they? If Tweeter is paying $500 for speaker X and Joe bottom feeder is paying $500 for the same speaker Klipsch still makes the same profit. J bottomfeeder offers the speaker for 600 while retailers offer the same speaker for $1000. Retailers sell one a month or 6 a monthfor the grey. the grey wins and you have 5 more happy customers that tell their friends how to save a ton of money. sure all won't be happy from grey market dealing but many more will be. Companies blame the consumer for buying the product at much lower prices but what is the manufacturer doing to protect this from happening. Klipsch isn't the only company guilty, but to blame consumers for saving money and accepting certain risk is wrong. who does it hurt, the salespeople trying to follow the rules. what does Klipsch do in turn, pull the carpet from underneath them. Scott (aka bottom feeder contributor) grey market shopper (as long as its there) Tweeter shopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Blue Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Perhaps I missed it somewhere in this thread, but I'm still not sure of why Klipsch is pulling out of Tweeters. I was in both a Tweeters and an Ultimate Electronics store this past weekend, and had a pretty good experience in both. Both carried quality electronics and many high-end components, not just run-of-the-mill cheap consumer items. I appreciated that, seeing item after item that was worth purchasing for a solid medium to above-average system. Even high-end interconnects, especially at Ultimate Electronics. I don't understand why Klipsch would pull out of a store like that. The Tweeters guys were telling me that Klipsch sales are a majority of their speaker sales. Is Klipsch pulling out of Ultimate Electronics too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iago Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Bruinsrme, I agree about companies like Klipsch and Denon talking out of both sides of their mouth...they could easily solve this problem if they cared... However , I do think that the consumer should look at the eventuality of what will happen to quality audio if there is no way to compare sound...frankly I don't like to have others tell me what sounds best,; EVERYONE HAS AN AGENDA!! SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL DEALER OR ALL WILL BE BOSE...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Iago, supporting my local dealer can only go so far before other things need to happen. Let's take my receiver for instance. Pioneer MSRP is $4300 local dealer 1 $3700 local dealer 2 $3600 internet risky $2800 delivered with in house warranty I would love to support my local dealer but $800 is the price of my DV47ai these companies know this is going on and yet blame the consumer for exploiting the system. Meanwhile Pioneer, Denon, Klipsch, Marantz still are getting their full wholesale price. the more product they get out their door the more money they make. Not to be harsh but then blame the system for such exploitations. If I paid full retail for my HT stuff, I would have RF3, RS3,RC3, 49txi, TEAC DVD, RSW10 and a WEGA xbr But instead I have Pioneer 49txi $2800 (on line) 47ai $750 (on line) RF7 $1500 (tweeter clearance) RC7 $643 (tweeter) 2 sets of RS7 $1100 2 SVS PC+ 2039 XBR (Tweeter) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REFSELLER Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 If I paid full retail for my HT stuff, I would have RF3, RS3,RC3, 49txi, TEAC DVD, RSW10 and a WEGA xbr But instead I have Pioneer 49txi $2800 (on line) 47ai $750 (on line) RF7 $1500 (tweeter clearance) RC7 $643 (tweeter) 2 sets of RS7 $1100 2 SVS PC+ 2039 XBR (Tweeter) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^end quote I agree that the mnfgrs bear the brunt of the responsibility, but don't you like having a B&M to demo gear in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Ref, yes I do like having a B&M and I do feel for the sales people. Grey market usage (GUILTY) But Ref you being in a B&M also must feel slated by your product suppliers for not cracking down on such a market. The quantities in the grey market are vast and readily available. Why is this? Who is controlling such distribution? If company X makes 50,000 units and 35,000 are order from stores A,B and C where do the rest go. Why do these companies not offer B&M incentives that they can pass on or split with the customer? There are a 1000 why, if, how come, why not questions that could be presented and argued but the bottom line is their products are being made available at a significant savings to the consumer and very little is being done to control the grey market cancer. If the companies want to stop such a market then they need to control their distribution. Until they do that they are just as guilty as me, other consumers, distributors, the unauthorized dealers for supporting the grey market. On the other hand if spekaer company X control distribution too much it could hurt their market share. Catch 22 Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iago Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 def. tech., B&W, Paradigm, Rotel and other quality audio mnfgrs are RABID about protecting their B&m's and as a result most of the better run custom instalation companies with showroom/retail storefronts are getting into these lines so they won't have to mess around with www.fatguyinabrooklynwharehouse.com.......eventually this is what all of the better audio shops will have to do to survive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 those such companies have takent he responsibility to protect their prodcut and heavily discriminate their distributors. But is Klipsch willing to change their model? Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomL Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 If the companies want to stop such a market then they need to control their distribution. Until they do that they are just as guilty as me, other consumers, distributors, the unauthorized dealers for supporting the grey market. ................... It's O.K., you're only part of the problem . IT WON'T really matter to most when we have no where to sit and listen...it wasn't your fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 TomL, You are absolutely correct in saying I am part of the problem. Manufacturers are making their product available in that type of distribution chain while basically turning the other way. If these companies are truly concerned in protecting their name and product then more would be done. Your comments blame me as the consumer for making such a purchase. Yet limited responsibility is being placed on companies. They are still making money on every wholesale purchase, grey or authorized. So tell me do you think they really care where I had purchased my speakers or components? There are several companies that protect their products yet many mainstream companies present the "if you by from unathorized we will not honor the warranty" but in the meantime we will continue to provide the grey market with our products. Yes I do appreciate being able to audition components but companies need to work harder with authorized dealers. But when my cost savings is 30%-50% I think twice and accept a level of risk.. I know it affects the B&M, but purchasing grey got me what I wanted and put a little extra money into my sons college fund. Having calculated the amount of money I was willing to spend I was able to purchase the components of choice leaving some left over. Have you ever stopped by yahoo shopping and searched for RF7? How many hits do you get? Why do these companies allow their distro chains to keep supplying SO MANY unauthorized dealers? I am not defending the grey market but companies need to do more before calling on the consumer. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 To all members, especially you Klipsch fellars, #1 I have been in sales for over 20 years, 23 to be exact. In those 23 years I have given away 100's of thousands of dollars in advise and consultative market awareness only to have lost the deal due to price. That's the way it is in the real world. #2 The retail world in all industries has drastically changing. Did Sears or Radio Shack sell other brands of items 15 years ago? Another example is the pharmacy boom. One rather well of family operated our areas largest pharmacy for years. I have a sinus problem and need to take Ceclor on occassion. The script was $80+ most of the time (thank God for perscription cards). Well about 8 years ago along comes the SUPER drug store chain selling it for $50. Well guess who is selling it for $45? How did they buy there Mercedes and Porche cars and 400K+ homes? I wonder. #3 Knowing a bit about retail mark up and the importance of gross margin and "contibuting $" margin to the bottom line might give me a one up on the average consumer HOWEVER I always negotiate. Do you folks pay the retail price for everything you buy? All of my purchases have been from authorized dealers and to insult those for buying your product elsewhere is wrong. As a matter of fact I paid $85 more dollars and drove 4 hours round trip to buy from your present, soon to be cancelled, dealer. People buy my product on e-Bay used and we still service it, at a fee of course. Regards, Mike' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iago Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 "Yes I do appreciate being able to audition components ....." ********************************** Look, I do not for one minute mind people finding another B&m TO purchase equipment that I took the time to demo for them. I understand and appreciate the negotiation process and I know that the other B&M could demo the equipment and do a similar job explaining the whys and wherefors and provide support after the sale....But the e-marketers are NOT providing the essential service of demonstration/comparison...if you don't need a demo then fine, I don't mind you shopping from people who don't provide one. But all the sob stories about saving for aunt angel's wheelchair is just a RATIONALIZATION! I am prepared on a daily basis to assist people in their quest for information and provide MANY useful services that the on-line retailer cannot, but will only site one; that is the opportunity to here good comparative demos which are critical in preserving the hierarcy of brands pushing the envelope of sound quality .....All I want is a chance, but operating a listening room has an overhead and if that is not worth paying for than stay out and quit wasting my time, you obviously don't need my services or store and it is hypocritical to pretend otherwise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 My thanks to all that have chimed in especially those from Klipsch. This has been some excellent reading. Now here are some more thoughts and concerns... 1. I do not want the Klipsch line to go the way of JBL, KLH, Cerwin Vega and BIC by trying to force feed a product down the food chain with mass distribution. If in the future you have to make it lesser expensive to hit margins so it can be sold in "volume" then you compromise the integrity of the product and your reputation in the industry. You would have to make up the difference somewhere... right? However with that said many manufacturers have been sucessful in cross-branding or offering "consumer grade" merchandise. Let's look at a few: Yamaha, Kenwood, Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, Mitsubishi. I am sure properly managed with the correct goals set AND controlled by Klipsch the Synergy/BB phase of distribution can be successful. However brace yourself because the compeition will have a field day. Education and training in your distribution channel is now a crucial part of you long term success now more than ever IMHO. 2. For those that love the Heritage let me say it is tough to keep breathing life (aka money) in a product the market no longer craves. I agree their design, construction and sound quality make them a steal in todays market but they no longer have the ergonomic or technical appeal that todays buyer craves. I too am in an industry where one of my key manufactures products will go by the wayside soon. It performance, ease of use, durablity and low cost of ownership it's the best in its class. BUT THE CONSUMER DEMANDS MORE FEATURES AND A SEXIER USER INTERFACE. The former are great product attributes but sizzle and sex (with the false assurance that the new is as good as the old) sells today. Remember Klipsch is not doing this to the market the market is doing this to them. 3. "Skating" aka grey market. To lump all e-tailer in the catagory of selling out of a van on a street corner is wrong. There are some very knowledgeable sales staff that are employeed by these companies that make the staff at your authorized B&M store look weak at best. However there are some guys in vans as you say too. I had an experience in the Baltimore area while I was there on business that and wanted to check at a large e-Bayer. I called their 800 number and got their address. So i tried to find the "store". It turned out to be a Mail Box ETC location where they recieve mail but all the staff had distinct NY accents... go figure. You have to be careful. The big question is where do they get the product. Answer, from Klipsch dealers trying to make quota in order to keep their franchise and make an "easy buck" (sell to e-tailer cost + 5-10% CASH terms). The grey market pricing model allows for big discounts. Where is there overhead? Web page hosting ($300/yr), sales rep answer phone ($6/hr + 2-5% commission), incoming 800 calls (5 cpm) get the picture. There is no warehouse, no store, very low if any insurance etc, etc etc. 4. Maybe Klipsch could sell Heritage direct via the web and have store stock them for audition purposes only and pay a spiff to the store based on zip code of customer. You could sell the product at 25% off MSRP and make more than you make now. Sounds crazy but I'm brainstorming or brain farting one or the other. 5. Current market demands are confusing value and price as the same. I am in a very competitive industry. Our company employees 5 local techs the competition only 2 while the other has no local presence. My product is sold globally and is used by many major accounts. My product is considered by many as the benchmark in our industry, in other words Brand X states we do this just like "xxxxxx". My product is made by a publically traded AND profitable company. But as good as we are we still loose deals every day. Why? Simple... price, plain and simple. If Brand X is $12,500 and I sit at $16,000 then I don't get the business. That's only 3500 bucks but its also 22% more. 6. What will happen to the Reference line? Is my recent RF-7 purchase in jeopardy of becoming absolete with the new RF-35 for $1000 (sounded great) coming in to meet a price point (probably replacing the RF-3II and/or RF-5). Again the concern is when you try to move down the food chain sometimes the entire line migrates that direction. The question is: Is your distribution model price based (walmart), mass distribution oriented (intel) or quality based (harley davidson). That is what many of us are unsure of with the new distribution model. 7. What did Tweeters do to get cancelled? Did the supply grey market goods? Selling out of territory by building new stores on top of existing dealers? Displaying to many competing products? There has to be a reason to cut such a large customer of yours that looked as though was making money. Well I'm done. Just my .02 + $1.98 as usual. Oh yeah one more thing for the folks at Klipsch. Why not sponsor an open house/weekend for your customers and forum members. Nothing fancy. 2-3 product or application seminars conducted in house or sponsored by related industry partners, light lunch one day on your dime (limit attendance say first 50-100-200) and just an old fashioned town meeting style Q&A session to wrap things up. This might be a low cost good faith gesture to your customers and you may even sell some speakers too, maybe offer some sort of coupon redeamable at your local authorized dealer. I'd bet you would be surprised of the attendance. Of course we would pay for our own travel expenses... this time anyway. Regards and good luck. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Iago, well it is evident what sector you are working in. So I turn the question back to you, what have these companies done to support and help the B&M to compete against the, as Mr Miles put it, Skating market. Looking at the availibility or their product on line I venture to say, a big fat NOTHING. I do understand the impact that the skating market is having on the B&M and commissioned sales. This may sound cold, harsh, ignorant, arrogant and like I could not care less about anyone else or anthing else but it's an genuine feeling. What i am gathering is I should not but grey market where i could save a significant amount of money because I should screw my son's education in order to support the B&M and your childs education or aunt's wheelchair. Sorry can't do. His needs come first and foremost before someone elses child. Then an argument can be made why do you need such equipment. I don't. a certain amount of money has been set aside from a second job that I took on to pay for the toys. My full time job affords me a luxury where working a second job does not impact family time and a provides little extra income for me and my toys and an increase in the quality of life for my family. You may call me every name in the book and I can live with that. But laying a guilt trip on how I should spend my money and suport my family I can not accept that. Sorry but i will have to resort to an immature reply of saying kiss my butt. If the B&M wants to survive they need to push back on these companies that covertly supply their products to the grey market. The consumer, namely me, will pay a perceived fair market value for a product and will look until they find it. Don't buy it? Take a look at some of these recent posts of forum goers snatching up Klipsch speakers during the clearance sales some stores are having. RF7s for $1400 - $1500. $2000 was not a valued purchase. But at $1500 the perceived value was there and i made the purchase from Tweeter. So in closing thank you for the replies to my postings and the debate of this topic. perhaps Klipsch will take these debates to heart and do what is right for the consumer and B&M. Scott Remember it is the retail market that coined the ideology, consumers are stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iago Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 What i am gathering is I should not but grey market where i could save a significant amount of money because I should screw my son's education in order to support the B&M and your childs education or aunt's wheelchair. Sorry can't do. His needs come first and foremost before someone elses child. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ends quote I am sorry if I come off like I,m laying on a guilt trip (the word "guilty" was yours), it's America AND you have the absolute right to do what's in your own best interest. However, long term, I don't think it is not in the best interests of audio enthusiasts to dry-up the few places that offer a comparative demo. As for the morality side of it, I just could not go into a place to demo equipment that I'd know I'd be buying from a wharehouse.... ymmv.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 iago, I understand the situation we all face and the impacts. If you are making 1000widget 1 at the cost of $3.50 and selling it for $5 to store w thats a decent profit. but you discover that you can make 1500 widget 1 at the cost of $2.75 because of the discount for purchasing more stock. But store w doesn't want more. Having more inventory and no demand you sell the excess widget1 to fatguyinNY at $3.75 inturn sell his widget 1 dfor $4.25. You have made a larger profit, saved money on warehousing, labor, taxes, employee benefits, insurance and so on. Store w says hey whats going on here. Reply we will look into it and find out what is happening. Perhaps the fatguyinNY is getting them from employees going out the back door? Maybe but there are too many widget accounted for in our inventory system. from a consumers point of view the end user takes the heat while the producer takes a cruise. In the middle thedecentguyinNY, if they ruffle too many feather will be dropped from the suppliers A list. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REFSELLER Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Store w says hey whats going on here. Reply we will look into it and find out what is happening. Perhaps the fatguyinNY is getting them from employees going out the back door? Maybe but there are too many widget accounted for in our inventory system. .........great quote.... Yes, you have an understanding of some of what is going on with the mnfgrs like denon and klipsch , I think what others are saying is that ultimately it will be the audio entusiasts who will suffer because the only gear that will be "auditioned" by mid to hi end retailers will be gear that is HEAVILY protected in it's distribution, and the gear that is available only on-line and in low-end "no-proper-demo-available" mass merchants like bb and cc will begin to offer more and more features and attractive prices, but less and less quality...so , dig your own grave... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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