kjohnsonhp Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 See the link below for details on a huge loss for civilization now and in the future. My avatar is a famous Akkadian King and it's now missing after the looting. http://slate.msn.com/id/2081647/ I was pleased that the coalition had listed thousands of archiealogical sites in Mesopotamia as "no strike", and now I simply can't believe we didn't protect our museums like we protected oil...it is simply unbelievable and a horrific loss for earth's culture. It reminds me of when Nepolean's troops shot at the Sphynx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 This was in today`s paper. A huge loss for everyone. COMMENTARY A cultural casualty of war The U.S. military's failure to stop the looting of the Iraqi National Museum was a strategic blunder. By Christopher Knight, Times Staff Writer One tank. That's about all it would have taken to prevent the wholesale destruction of the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad last week, where a stellar repository of ancient civilization was looted and trashed after American and British forces entered the city, toppling the ironfisted regime of Saddam Hussein. A mighty American tank or two, and a few watchful soldiers, strategically parked by the front door surely could have prevented the catastrophe, which was reportedly carried out with a blend of randomness and precision. A couple of dozen men, women and even children began the looting one day, hundreds finished it the next. But, come on now. Let's be serious. Is anybody really surprised that Baghdad's great civic art museum didn't rate a measly tank? That the treasures of ancient Mesopotamia sat unguarded and exposed, ripe for the picking by local scavengers either amateur or professional? The horrendous event was not, after all, a dire outcome of "the fog of war." It was instead a routine example of the fog of the Bush administration, when it comes to matters cultural. Today it is almost universally accepted that, in the long run-up to the invasion of Iraq, the United States did the dance of international diplomacy with two left feet. Diplomatic negotiation isn't just a matter of bare-knuckled, bottom-line horse trading that forces determined adversaries finally to agree. It's a nuanced give-and-take, an incremental persuasion that rises or falls on an understanding of social mores and the complex pageant of cultural sensitivities. There's a reason that diplomacy is called an art, not a science or a business. Art is not this administration's long suit. Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was asked at a Pentagon press briefing this week whether the military had made a mistake in failing to defend the museum. (The House of Wisdom, Iraq's national library, where the country's historical archives are kept, was also severely damaged.) Noting that the museum was not considered of major importance when sporadic combat operations were still underway in isolated pockets around the sprawling city, Gen. Myers explained, "It's as much as anything a matter of priorities." We know that, general; we know. Irreplaceable cultural artifacts dating to the dawn of civilization in the Middle East were not a Bush administration priority. That's the problem. An office building in downtown Baghdad housing the Ministry of Oil was a priority, and a tank or two was dispatched post-haste to secure that hugely valuable site -- even as those sporadic combat operations were still underway around town. But an art museum? Please. Oil is a one-dimensional asset. It's property that can be bought and sold. This, an administration composed of oil men understands. Art, on the other hand, is a two-dimensional asset. It's property, yes; the looters know well that it can have significant commercial value, and the illicit trade in antiquities saw its leading indicators take a giant leap last week. But aside from monetary worth, art is also an intangible resource -- one that has immense use-value. It's a repository of meaning, a reservoir of social faith, a talisman of historical identity. Art has benefits that cannot be measured in dollars and cents alone. And it's a value that is critically needed now. Why? Because whatever the horrendous atrocities perpetrated by Hussein's cruel dictatorship, Iraq today lies in ruin. We, having smashed it, are obliged to play a major role in fixing it. And for that monumental task we need all the assistance we can get. The Iraqi National Museum could have helped. Not immediately securing the museum was more than just a cultural shame -- although it was certainly that. It was also a gross strategic blunder. The Bush administration squandered an instrument of extraordinary power for rebuilding Iraq, when it desperately needs every useful tool it can get. Broad skepticism has been voiced around the world about America's capacity to impose democracy on Iraq, a country riven with ethnic, tribal, religious and political differences. Whatever those manifold cultural distinctions might be, however, they all share one thing: The art, artifacts and archives housed in the Iraqi National Museum and the National Library comprise their common legacy. They're one thing everybody owns. They represent the deep roots of the great tree that spread out its multitude of limbs. And now those roots are severed. Some of the looted sculptures, vessels, manuscripts and other objects might someday find their way back to the museum and the library. There is speculation, too, that certain critically important works may have been removed from the premises for safekeeping before the war began. And major archeological sites around the country, of which there is no shortage, seem for the moment to be relatively intact. American forces apparently took precautions not to bomb them. But Baghdad is different. Baghdad is -- well, Baghdad. A thousand years ago it was the glittering cultural capital of an entire region, the extraordinarily productive seat of great art, literature and thought. Today it's being advanced by a new U.S. foreign policy as another type of regional linchpin -- a catalyst for wider political reform in the Middle East. Baghdad is meant to be a vital hub. Imagine what it could have meant for the prospects of that hellishly fraught task had foreign armed forces come together to save the cultural treasure that all Iraqis, regardless of affiliation, claim as their own patrimony. Imagine how the glory of one of the world's great art museums might have been useful as an international rallying point. Imagine -- but never mind. Now there is no point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Depends on ones perspective I guess. Yeah, tragic the museum didn't get protected but as an active duty military leader I wouldn't want to have to write a letter to the parents of one of my troops stating he/she died in my care while guarding a museum...sorry... I would be pissed if my son/daughter bit the big one guarding a statue as the Museum Police. Hell, we didn't hurt the museum, they did. The Oil MInistry is tied to the economic assets of Iraq and coalition objectives in Iraqi Freedom are to give back control of Iraq's economy to the Iraqi people. Lot's of folks out there thinking we went to war in Iraq to steal their oil. Liberal media bias yes, but in fact ludicrous. LOL! MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arena Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 On 4/18/2003 11:44:33 PM MBM135 wrote: Yeah, tragic the museum didn't get protected but as an active duty military leader I wouldn't want to have to write a letter to the parents of one of my troops stating he/she died in my care while guarding a museum...sorry... I would be pissed if my son/daughter bit the big one guarding a statue as the Museum Police. no one said that the museum should be defended against an armed attack, simply guarded against the looting that took place in the absence of any kind of protection. the looting was an entirely non-violent crime of opportunity. a few soldiers or a tank could have easily been placed as guards to eliminate that opportunity, with virtually no risk of injury whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Cerebral rectitus (hindsight) is 20/20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Yeah, well, being in the military let me tell you that force protection is a key objective right now. We here in the comfortable USA in our easy chairs shouldn't question where tanks are being dispatched in Bahgdad. US forces are maneuvering in ways to provide maximmum force protection to our troops while meeting campaign objectives. Commanders are using their resources with priority objectives and force protection as paramount. Museums are a ways down the list. As the situation improves we will be able to more effectively guard a wider array of high value areas--and get the Iraqi police better able to assist. Our guys are targets wherever they are--at an airport, in front of a mosque, gov't building, or museum. Always amazes me how people with little or no military background have all the answers and believe Gen Myers is stupid for not ensuring we sent enough combat power to Bahgdad to guard every street corner from looters. Hell, we can't even prevent street crime here at home let alone in Iraq. Oh well, this is an audio forum...wonder if the thugs looted any Klipsch gear from "Bahgdad Audio"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Doesn't this count as a "war thread" -- yeesh, we might all be banned tomorrow. Yep, it sucks. However, now that Iraq isn't a closed society anymore -- maybe some real digging can begin. Garden of Eden's under there somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 The point of the article is this. By not having guarded the museum, we have squandered an opportunity to prove to the people of Iraq that we were not in this war just for our own interests. Your point about dieing while guarding a museum sounds bias. Soldiers die doing all sorts of what seems to be at the time, odd jobs. Guarding a bridge, a food bank, a roadblock, whatever. Your statement that guarding a museum in some way is`nt a good reason to die holds no weight . And no, we did not hurt the museum. But we were responsible for allowing the opportunity to exist. By printing the article, I am not saying that General Myers was stupid for not protecting the museum. He`s in a war, and has more than enough to think about. But others higher up, should have foreseen this coming months ago before the invasion, and made the necessary plans to stop it. And I would like to apologize to this board for getting in to a political debate on a 2-channel forum. It is not what we are here for.I really should`nt drink before logging on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 I don't want to enter a 'war' debate and I don't really think this is one. This seems to be a question of priority and blame. A few points: You state 'we have squandered an opportunity to prove to the people of Iraq that we were not in this war just for our own interests" but fail to see the irony/contradiction in that it was 'the people of Iraq' who looted the museum and we ARE in it for our own interests. The Iraqi police also seem to have been less than interested in protecting their treasures as well. They are the police - isn't it their job to prevent looting and/or restore civil obedience? Lastly, the Bush administration is caught between a rock and a hard place. They were lambasted for going to war by all those concerned with the Iraqi people and the American war machine 'invading' a country and people. Then when the Iraqi people celebrated their liberation, they were lambasted for something else because those who claim "peace and love" as their motto couldn't argue against millions of celebrating Iraqi's. Now they are attacked for the looting by the Iraqi people. Of course, if we had stationed soldiers at the Museum and/or used force against civilians intent on looting, the anti's would have screamed murderers and proclaimed the potential looting of 'old stuff' wasn't worth the lives they had taken. It will always be something. Many are already focusing on the Bush tax cut since the Iraqi situation is now a losing cause. Don't hear very much from the war protestors now. Curious. Lets start arguing over the rich getting all the money and the poor getting screwed again. Love the math involved in proving that notion. Instead of screaming 'liberal, fascist, and Republican" maybe we could frame the discussion with mutual respect and discuss progressive, proportional, and regressive taxation and what it means to receive a federal tax cut. Instead of a political discussion, it would be a purely economically one. A learning experience if you will. Would it work? Probably as likely as Muslims converting to Christianity because their lunch pack has a verse from John in it. PS. Look at that. No war argument but I did manage to coverage politics, economics, AND religion while employing just a wee bit of sarcasm. PSS. Figure most of that stuff wasn't really important in the grand scheme of things anyways. We humans tend to make up history and place importance on stuff we don't have the first clue about anyways. Mesopotamia? Can you say "We're off to see the Wizard..." You want the truth? We are all descendents of a group of convicts who crash landed on Earth while being transported from a penal colony in the Nexis galaxy. All those artifacts are simply part of the Matrix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Quote>>>>>You state 'we have squandered an opportunity to prove to the people of Iraq that we were not in this war just for our own interests" but fail to see the irony/contradiction in that it was 'the people of Iraq' who looted the museum and we ARE in it for our own interests.<<<<<< Well of course it was the people of Iraq. They live there. It was not the people of Iraq who looted LA during the LA riots, it was people from LA. Quote>>>>>The Iraqi police also seem to have been less than interested in protecting their treasures as well. They are the police - isn't it their job to prevent looting and/or restore civil obedience?<<<<<< Do you really think the Iraqi police were instructed to guard all national treasures during the war? And if so, don`t you think, that in a time of war, they might need a little help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Quote>>>>PSS. Figure most of that stuff wasn't really important in the grand scheme of things anyways. We humans tend to make up history and place importance on stuff we don't have the first clue about anyways. Mesopotamia? Can you say "We're off to see the Wizard..." You want the truth? We are all descendents of a group of convicts who crash landed on Earth while being transported from a penal colony in the Nexis galaxy. All those artifacts are simply part of the Matrix.<<<< You write the script and I`ll direct it. It`s a,"picture of the year", waiting to happen. I think we are starting to make ant hills into mountains here. We have all made our points. Let us get back to the reason we logged on. Starting...... now! I can`t wait to get my Cornwalls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Nexis galaxy,part of the matrix,I love it,BEST explanation I've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 "Figure most of that stuff wasn't really important in the grand scheme of things, anyway?" Dude, you oughta try getting a job in the Bush administration: you'd fit right in! fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Very well said Anarchist, I was going to post but you took the words right out of my mouth, and some I couldn't even think of. Thankx Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted April 19, 2003 Author Share Posted April 19, 2003 I don't think guarding the musuems had anything to do with risk of troops. I just think it was a mistake in planning--we have stated we didn't expect the citizens to loos their own museums yet that is what they did in 1991. We should have expected it and made plans accordingly. I don't accept the response that we didn't loot the museum they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Just a point here...it was IRAQIS who did the looting...and I am quite SURE that there are PLENTY of IRAQIS who saw it happening...so if they want their treasures back, then it will have to be IRAQIS who turn-in the looters they saw taking those treasures!! Pretty simple! It is ludicrous at best for IRAQIS to be raising hell at AMERICANS for the behavior of OTHER IRAQIS!! Dontcha think???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted April 19, 2003 Author Share Posted April 19, 2003 I didn't think this would be controversial...I just thought is was tragic....the point was duirng the war I've been using the Akkadian King relic as my avatar and now it's gone...I guess that is the only link to the Klipsch Forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 ---------------- On 4/19/2003 9:05:54 AM HDBRbuilder wrote: Just a point here...it was IRAQIS who did the looting...and I am quite SURE that there are PLENTY of IRAQIS who saw it happening...so if they want their treasures back, then it will have to be IRAQIS who turn-in the looters they saw taking those treasures!! Pretty simple! It is ludicrous at best for IRAQIS to be raising hell at AMERICANS for the behavior of OTHER IRAQIS!! Dontcha think???? ---------------- Yeah, why can't those darn Iraqis behave? When will they realize we have the bombs! And we're not afraid to use 'em! Maybe we shoulda had the museum surrounded, and picked-off those nasty looters as they were coming out the doors (carefully aiming so as not to shoot the ancient art pieces, and making sure the treasures land gently onto soft Iraqi bodies. We've got the technology...let's use it!!). Man, I can hardly wait until the find those weapons of mass destruction! I've got my champagne and party favors ready to go (I even wrapped them in visqueen and duct tape!). fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craighorn Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 I just signed on to this site... and cannot believe my eyes... there are plenty of places to vent political nonsense... THIS is not that type of forum ! THAT being said. Had our troops SHOT ONE IRAQI that was looting... THEN what ? Are you going to say there is virtue there ? Or would you be complaining about excess force ? One major point of this war was to allow the Iraqi people to govern themselves. They WILL have some problems. They WILL work them out. It is THEIR country. AND - WE are not assuming ownership of the oil fields... The Iraqi people and new country will have ownership Can we stick to speakers and music now ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 19, 2003 Share Posted April 19, 2003 Welcome to the forum Craig, and welcome to the Klipsch Family. You are going to find out real soon just what kind of Family we are too. A big wonderful, happy, dysfunctional kind -- and we love to push the envelope and get the webmaster's blood pressure up! Seriously though, these threads are rare, and most of us know how to act when they do pop up. BTW -- it wasn't very nice of you to spank us for getting out of the audio realm, and then posting your opinion in the thread you were objecting too. Looks like you'll fit right in with the rest of us loons, of course, I don't know if the Forum can survive two 'Craigs'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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